Arnoul III de Crequy1
M, #23611
Father | Arnoul II de Crequy2 d. 937 |
Mother | Valpurge d'Argouins3 |
Reference | EDV30 |
Last Edited | 6 Nov 2020 |
Family | Adele d'Arkel |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30236
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30238
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30239
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30237
Adele d'Arkel1
F, #23612
Reference | EDV30 |
Last Edited | 4 Nov 2020 |
Adele d'Arkel married Arnoul III de Crequy, son of Arnoul II de Crequy and Valpurge d'Argouins.1
EDV-30.
EDV-30.
Family | Arnoul III de Crequy |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30237
Arnoul II de Crequy1
M, #23613, d. 937
Father | Odooere de Créquy2 |
Mother | Yolande (?) of Cleves3 |
Reference | EDV31 |
Last Edited | 6 Nov 2020 |
Family | Valpurge d'Argouins |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30238
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30240
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30241
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30239
Valpurge d'Argouins1
F, #23614
Reference | EDV31 |
Last Edited | 4 Nov 2020 |
Valpurge d'Argouins married Arnoul II de Crequy, son of Odooere de Créquy and Yolande (?) of Cleves.1,2
EDV-31.
EDV-31.
Family | Arnoul II de Crequy d. 937 |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30239
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30238
Odooere de Créquy1
M, #23615
Father | Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil2 d. 897 |
Mother | Ignode de Harlebec3 |
Reference | EDV32 |
Last Edited | 6 Nov 2020 |
Odooere de Créquy married Yolande (?) of Cleves, daughter of Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves and Maud (?).1
EDV-32.
EDV-32.
Family | Yolande (?) of Cleves |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30240
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30242
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30243
Yolande (?) of Cleves1
F, #23616
Father | Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 917 |
Mother | Maud (?)3 |
Reference | EDV32 |
Last Edited | 3 Nov 2020 |
Yolande (?) of Cleves married Odooere de Créquy, son of Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil and Ignode de Harlebec.4
EDV-32.
EDV-32.
Family | Odooere de Créquy |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30241
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30244
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30245
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30240
Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil1
M, #23617, d. 897
Reference | EDV33 |
Last Edited | 10 Nov 2020 |
Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil married Ignode de Harlebec, daughter of Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec.2
Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil died in 897.1
EDV-33.
Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil died in 897.1
EDV-33.
Family | Ignode de Harlebec |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30242
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30243
Ignode de Harlebec1
F, #23618
Father | Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec2 d. 862 |
Reference | EDV33 |
Last Edited | 7 Nov 2020 |
Family | Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil d. 897 |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30243
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I887
Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec1
M, #23619, d. 862
Father | Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders2 b. c 775, d. 825 |
Reference | EDV34 |
Last Edited | 6 Nov 2020 |
Family | |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I887
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I888
Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders1,2
M, #23620, b. circa 775, d. 825
Last Edited | 27 Oct 2020 |
Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders was born circa 775.
Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders died in 825.2
He was 2nd Count of Flanders.2 Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders was also known as Enguerrand (?) Count.
Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders died in 825.2
He was 2nd Count of Flanders.2 Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders was also known as Enguerrand (?) Count.
Family | |
Child |
Citations
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Flandres.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I888
Alice d'Oisy1
F, #23621
Last Edited | 20 Sep 2020 |
Family | Ramelin II de Créquy d. c 986 |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30235
Mary Campbell1
F, #23622
Father | Colin Campbell 1st Earl of Argyll, 2nd Lord Campbell2 d. 19 May 1493 |
Mother | Isobel (or Elizabeth) Stewart2 d. 26 Oct 1510 |
Last Edited | 28 Nov 2002 |
Mary Campbell married Angus (?), son of John MacDonald Lord of the Isles, 11th (last) Earl of Ross.2
Family | Angus (?) |
Citations
- [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page - see MACLEAN, Bt, of Dowart. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site.
- [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page.
Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves1
M, #23623, d. 917
Father | Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 881 |
Mother | Bertha (?)3 |
Reference | EDV34 |
Last Edited | 19 Oct 2020 |
Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves married Maud (?)4,1
Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves died in 917.1
EDV-34 GKJ-35.
Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves died in 917.1
EDV-34 GKJ-35.
Family | Maud (?) |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30244
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30246
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30247
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30245
Maud (?)1
F, #23624
Reference | EDV34 |
Last Edited | 31 Oct 2020 |
Maud (?) married Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves, son of Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves and Bertha (?).1,2
EDV-34.
EDV-34.
Family | Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves d. 917 |
Child |
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30245
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30244
Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves1
M, #23625, d. 881
Father | Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 835 |
Mother | Bertha (?)3 |
Reference | EDV35 |
Last Edited | 31 Oct 2020 |
Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves married Bertha (?)4,1
Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves died in 881.1
EDV-35.
Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves died in 881.1
EDV-35.
Family | Bertha (?) |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30246
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30248
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30249
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30247
Bertha (?)1
F, #23626
Reference | EDV35 |
Last Edited | 22 Oct 2020 |
Bertha (?) married Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves, son of Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves and Bertha (?).1,2
EDV-35 GKJ-36.
EDV-35 GKJ-36.
Family | Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves d. 881 |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30247
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30246
Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves1
M, #23627, d. 835
Father | Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 830 |
Reference | EDV36 |
Last Edited | 27 Oct 2020 |
Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves married Bertha (?)3,1
Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves died in 835.1
EDV-36.
Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves died in 835.1
EDV-36.
Family | Bertha (?) |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30248
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30250
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30249
Bertha (?)1
F, #23628
Reference | EDV36 |
Last Edited | 22 Oct 2020 |
Bertha (?) married Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves, son of Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves.1,2
EDV-36 GKJ-37.
EDV-36 GKJ-37.
Family | Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves d. 835 |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30249
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30248
Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves1
M, #23629, d. 830
Reference | EDV37 |
Last Edited | 19 Oct 2020 |
Family | |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I30250
Pepin "the Hunchback" (?)1,2
M, #23630, b. before 770, d. 811
Father | Charlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West1,2,3 b. 2 Apr 747, d. 28 Jan 814 |
Mother | Himiltrude (?)1,2 b. c 742, d. c 780 |
Last Edited | 13 Sep 2020 |
Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was born before 770.1
Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) died in 811.1,2
; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference: 63.1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pippin "der Bucklige" (?)1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pipin "le Bossu" (?)2
Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) died in 811.1,2
; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference: 63.1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pippin "der Bucklige" (?)1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pipin "le Bossu" (?)2
Citations
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Pippin "der Bucklige": http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020003&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO
Bertha/Bertrada (?)1,2,3,4,5
F, #23631, b. circa 779, d. after 14 January 823
Father | Charlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West3,6,7,5,8 b. 2 Apr 747, d. 28 Jan 814 |
Mother | Hildegardis (?) of Swabia, Countess of Vinzgau, Queen of the Franks3,9,6,7,5,10,11 b. bt 2 May 757 - 30 Apr 761, d. 30 Apr 783 |
Reference | GAV30 |
Last Edited | 14 Sep 2020 |
Bertha/Bertrada (?) was born circa 779.3,7,6,5 She married Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire, son of Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu and Richarde (?), in 795
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.3,12,7,6,13
Bertha/Bertrada (?) died after 14 January 823; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says d. 11 March 826; Med Lands says d. 11 Mar 824 or after.3,6,7,5
Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 GAV-30.
; This is the same person as Bertha, daughter of Charlemagne at Wikipedia and as Berthe (fille de Charlemagne) at Wikipédia (Fr.)14,15
; Per Med Lands:
"BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
"Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)17"
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.3,12,7,6,13
Bertha/Bertrada (?) died after 14 January 823; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says d. 11 March 826; Med Lands says d. 11 Mar 824 or after.3,6,7,5
Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 GAV-30.
; This is the same person as Bertha, daughter of Charlemagne at Wikipedia and as Berthe (fille de Charlemagne) at Wikipédia (Fr.)14,15
; Per Med Lands:
"BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
"Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
[137] Einhardi Vita Karoli Imperator 18, MGH SS II, p. 453.
[138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.5
She and Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire were Per Genealogy.EU: "A6. [3m.] Bertha, *779/780, +11.3.826; m.787 Augilbert "the Saint" of Ponthieu (*ca 750, +18.2.814.)16" [138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.5
; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)17"
Family | Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire b. c 750, d. 18 Feb 814 |
Children |
|
Citations
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: http://www.genealogics.org/getextras.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO&PHPSESSID=ddc2127542108d09cf9a72ee0b0e19fd
- [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#Bertradadied823. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hildegardis: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020006&tree=LEO
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#CharlemagneB
- [S1702] The Henry Project: The ancestors of king Henry II of England, An experiment in cooperative medieval genealogy on the internet (now hosted by the American Society of Genealogists, ASG), online https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/, Hildegarde: https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/hilde001.htm. Hereinafter cited as The Henry Project.
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814
- [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha,_daughter_of_Charlemagne. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
- [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Berthe (fille de Charlemagne): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthe_(fille_de_Charlemagne). Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hartnid: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020035&tree=LEO
Angus (?)1
M, #23632
Father | John MacDonald Lord of the Isles, 11th (last) Earl of Ross1 |
Last Edited | 28 Nov 2002 |
Angus (?) married Mary Campbell, daughter of Colin Campbell 1st Earl of Argyll, 2nd Lord Campbell and Isobel (or Elizabeth) Stewart.1
Family | Mary Campbell |
Citations
- [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site.
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire1,2,3
M, #23633, b. circa 750, d. 18 February 814
Father | Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu5,6,4 |
Mother | Richarde (?)3,4 |
Reference | GAV30 |
Last Edited | 29 May 2020 |
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was born circa 750.2,1,4 He married Bertha/Bertrada (?), daughter of Charlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West and Hildegardis (?) of Swabia, Countess of Vinzgau, Queen of the Franks, in 795
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.1,7,8,5,4
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire died on 18 February 814 at Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France (now).2,1,3,4,9
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was buried after 18 February 814 at Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France; From Find A Grave:
BIRTH unknownm France
DEATH unknown, Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
Saint Angilbert (died 18 February 814) was a Frank who served Charlemagne as a diplomat, abbot, poet and semi-son-in-law. He was of noble Frankish parentage, and educated at the palace school in Aquae Grani (Aachen) under Alcuin. He is venerated as a saint, on the day of his death—18 February. When Charlemagne sent his young son Pepin to Italy as King of the Lombards Angilbert went along as primicerius palatii, a high administrator of the satellite court. As the friend and adviser of Pepin, he assisted for a while in the government of Italy. Angilbert delivered the document on Iconoclasm from the Frankish Synod of Frankfurt to Pope Adrian I, and was later sent on three important embassies to the pope, in 792, 794 and 796.
In 790 he was named abbot of Centulum, also called Sancti Richarii monasterium (Saint-Riquier) in northern France, where his brilliant rule gained for him later the renown of a saint. It was not uncommon for the Merovingian, Carolingian, or later kings to make laymen abbots of monasteries; the layman would often use the income of the monastery as his own and leave the monks a bare minimum for the necessary expenses of the foundation. Angilbert, in contrast, spent a great deal rebuilding Saint-Riquier, and when he completed it Charlemagne spent Easter of the year 800 there. Angilbert's non-sacramental relationship with Bertha was evidently recognized by the court - if she had not been the daughter of the King historians might refer to her as his concubine. They had at least two sons, one of whom, Nithard, became a notable figure in the mid-9th century. Control of marriage and the meanings of legitimacy were hotly contested in the Middle Ages. Bertha and Angilbert are an example of how resistance to the idea of a sacramental marriage could coincide with holding church offices.
His poems reveal the culture and tastes of a man of the world, enjoying the closest intimacy with the imperial family. He accompanied Charlemagne to Rome in 800 and was one of the witnesses to his will in 814. Angilbert was the Homer of the emperor's literary circle, and was the probable author of an epic, of which the fragment which has been preserved describes the life at the palace and the meeting between Charlemagne and Leo III. Angilbert's poems have been published by E. Dummler in the Monumenta Germaniae Historica.
Family Members
Children
Nithard de Ponthieu
BURIAL Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint-Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
Created by: Kat
Added: 29 Nov 2012
Find a Grave Memorial 101486783.9
; Per Med Lands:
"BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
"Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
; Per Med Lands:
"[ANGILBERT "the Saint" ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard). Nithard records that his father Angilbert "was a descendant of a family not unknown in those days, Madhelgaud, Richard and he came from the same stock"[507]. No proof has been found that Angilbert was the son of Nithard but there must have been a close relationship between the two in view of Angilbert giving his older son the same name. Leader of the council of Pepin King of Italy 780-790. He was called the "Homer of the court"[508]. He became a monk at the abbey of Saint-Riquier 790, elected Abbé 794. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” was granted “totius maritimæ terræ Ducatus”, in addition to “Palatini honoris”, and that he visited “Pontivum” after accepting the dukedom[509]. The Chronicon Centulensis records the death of “Angilbertus” in the same year as Emperor Charlemagne[510].
"Mistress (1): (from [795]) BERTRADA [Berta], daughter of CHARLES I King of the Franks & his second wife Hildegard ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles and Hildegard by Einhard[511]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[512]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[513]. She may have been the daughter whose hand in marriage Offa King of Mercia requested for his son Ecgfrith as a condition for agreeing to her father's proposal that her older brother Charles should marry one of Offa's daughters[514]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[515]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[516]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[517]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[518]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[519].]"
Med Lands cites:
; This is the same person as Angilbert at Wikipedia and as Angilbert at Wikipédia (Fr.)12,13
Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was conseiller du roi d’Italie Pépin 1er.3
; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)14"
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.1,7,8,5,4
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire died on 18 February 814 at Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France (now).2,1,3,4,9
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was buried after 18 February 814 at Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France; From Find A Grave:
BIRTH unknownm France
DEATH unknown, Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
Saint Angilbert (died 18 February 814) was a Frank who served Charlemagne as a diplomat, abbot, poet and semi-son-in-law. He was of noble Frankish parentage, and educated at the palace school in Aquae Grani (Aachen) under Alcuin. He is venerated as a saint, on the day of his death—18 February. When Charlemagne sent his young son Pepin to Italy as King of the Lombards Angilbert went along as primicerius palatii, a high administrator of the satellite court. As the friend and adviser of Pepin, he assisted for a while in the government of Italy. Angilbert delivered the document on Iconoclasm from the Frankish Synod of Frankfurt to Pope Adrian I, and was later sent on three important embassies to the pope, in 792, 794 and 796.
In 790 he was named abbot of Centulum, also called Sancti Richarii monasterium (Saint-Riquier) in northern France, where his brilliant rule gained for him later the renown of a saint. It was not uncommon for the Merovingian, Carolingian, or later kings to make laymen abbots of monasteries; the layman would often use the income of the monastery as his own and leave the monks a bare minimum for the necessary expenses of the foundation. Angilbert, in contrast, spent a great deal rebuilding Saint-Riquier, and when he completed it Charlemagne spent Easter of the year 800 there. Angilbert's non-sacramental relationship with Bertha was evidently recognized by the court - if she had not been the daughter of the King historians might refer to her as his concubine. They had at least two sons, one of whom, Nithard, became a notable figure in the mid-9th century. Control of marriage and the meanings of legitimacy were hotly contested in the Middle Ages. Bertha and Angilbert are an example of how resistance to the idea of a sacramental marriage could coincide with holding church offices.
His poems reveal the culture and tastes of a man of the world, enjoying the closest intimacy with the imperial family. He accompanied Charlemagne to Rome in 800 and was one of the witnesses to his will in 814. Angilbert was the Homer of the emperor's literary circle, and was the probable author of an epic, of which the fragment which has been preserved describes the life at the palace and the meeting between Charlemagne and Leo III. Angilbert's poems have been published by E. Dummler in the Monumenta Germaniae Historica.
Family Members
Children
Nithard de Ponthieu
BURIAL Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint-Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
Created by: Kat
Added: 29 Nov 2012
Find a Grave Memorial 101486783.9
; Per Med Lands:
"BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
"Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
[137] Einhardi Vita Karoli Imperator 18, MGH SS II, p. 453.
[138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.10
He and Bertha/Bertrada (?) were Per Genealogy.EU: "A6. [3m.] Bertha, *779/780, +11.3.826; m.787 Augilbert "the Saint" of Ponthieu (*ca 750, +18.2.814.)11" GAV-30. [138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.10
; Per Med Lands:
"[ANGILBERT "the Saint" ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard). Nithard records that his father Angilbert "was a descendant of a family not unknown in those days, Madhelgaud, Richard and he came from the same stock"[507]. No proof has been found that Angilbert was the son of Nithard but there must have been a close relationship between the two in view of Angilbert giving his older son the same name. Leader of the council of Pepin King of Italy 780-790. He was called the "Homer of the court"[508]. He became a monk at the abbey of Saint-Riquier 790, elected Abbé 794. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” was granted “totius maritimæ terræ Ducatus”, in addition to “Palatini honoris”, and that he visited “Pontivum” after accepting the dukedom[509]. The Chronicon Centulensis records the death of “Angilbertus” in the same year as Emperor Charlemagne[510].
"Mistress (1): (from [795]) BERTRADA [Berta], daughter of CHARLES I King of the Franks & his second wife Hildegard ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles and Hildegard by Einhard[511]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[512]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[513]. She may have been the daughter whose hand in marriage Offa King of Mercia requested for his son Ecgfrith as a condition for agreeing to her father's proposal that her older brother Charles should marry one of Offa's daughters[514]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[515]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[516]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[517]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[518]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[519].]"
Med Lands cites:
[507] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[508] Letter of [796] from Charles I King of the Franks to Angilbert, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 206 footnote 103.
[509] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[510] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 372.
[511] Einhard 18, p. 453.
[512] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[513] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[514] Stenton, F. M. (2001) Anglo-Saxon England 3rd edn (Oxford University Press), p. 220.
[515] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[516] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[517] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[518] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[519] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.4
[508] Letter of [796] from Charles I King of the Franks to Angilbert, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 206 footnote 103.
[509] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[510] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 372.
[511] Einhard 18, p. 453.
[512] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[513] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[514] Stenton, F. M. (2001) Anglo-Saxon England 3rd edn (Oxford University Press), p. 220.
[515] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[516] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[517] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[518] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[519] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.4
; This is the same person as Angilbert at Wikipedia and as Angilbert at Wikipédia (Fr.)12,13
Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was conseiller du roi d’Italie Pépin 1er.3
; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)14"
Family | Bertha/Bertrada (?) b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823 |
Children |
|
Citations
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
- [S2374] Find a Grave, online http://www.findagrave.com/, Find a Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 29 May 2020), memorial page for Saint Angilbert of Centula (unknown–unknown), Find a Grave Memorial no. 101486783, citing Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint-Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France ; Maintained by Kat (contributor 47496397), at: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/101486783/saint_angilbert-of_centula. Hereinafter cited as Find a Grave.
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#Bertradadied823
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angilbert. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
- [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angilbert. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hartnid: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020035&tree=LEO
Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu1,2,3,4
M, #23634, b. circa 796, d. 18 May 845
Father | Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire3,5,6,7,8,9 b. c 750, d. 18 Feb 814 |
Mother | Bertha/Bertrada (?)2,3,6,10,9 b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823 |
Last Edited | 29 May 2020 |
Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu was born circa 796; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says b. ca 800.3,2,4
Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu died on 18 May 845; died in battle; Rainces et Histoire says d. 15/5/845.2,3,4
; Nithard "The Chronicler", *ca 800, +15.5.845, he was ancestor of Counts de Ponthieu.2 He was abbé laïc de Saint-Riquier.4
; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.3
Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu died on 18 May 845; died in battle; Rainces et Histoire says d. 15/5/845.2,3,4
; Nithard "The Chronicler", *ca 800, +15.5.845, he was ancestor of Counts de Ponthieu.2 He was abbé laïc de Saint-Riquier.4
; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.3
Citations
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
- [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu1,2
M, #23635, b. circa 805, d. between 863 and 864
Father | Oswin (?)3 |
Reference | GAV29 |
Last Edited | 30 Sep 2020 |
Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu was born circa 805.1,2 He married Berthe de Ponthieu, daughter of Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire and Bertha/Bertrada (?), in 826.3
Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu died between 863 and 864.2,1
He was Abbé de St-Riquier.1,2 GAV-29.
; Per Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu): "Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud II de Boulogne (1er de Ponthieu), comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin ou Othon, comte de Boulogne) ° ~805 + 863/64 ”
Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud 1er comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin) ° ~805 + 863 ”.2,1
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.
I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""
VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.4,5,6,7,8,9,1,10,11
Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu died between 863 and 864.2,1
He was Abbé de St-Riquier.1,2 GAV-29.
; Per Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu): "Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud II de Boulogne (1er de Ponthieu), comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin ou Othon, comte de Boulogne) ° ~805 + 863/64 ”
Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud 1er comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin) ° ~805 + 863 ”.2,1
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.
I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had a son:
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863; m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had a son:
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy
III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926; m NN, had a son:
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy
V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956; m NN, relationship to following unknown:
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**
VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
VI1. (no predecessors shown)
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.
Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
"As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin (IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died 956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.
"We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
"The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."
"We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
"The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."
My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""
VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
VII.1 (predecessors are "unclear"
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy
The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.4,5,6,7,8,9,1,10,11
Family | Berthe de Ponthieu b. c 805, d. b 859 |
Children |
Citations
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2.
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, Seigneurs de Ramerupt, Comtes de Montdidier: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Montdidier, Comtes de Dammartin, & Seigneurs de Ramerupt, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montdidier-Dammartin-Ramerupt.pdf
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, COMTES de MONTREUIL: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_Toc494871036
- [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-21, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
- [S4812] Peter Stewart, "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020: "Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?"," e-mail message from e-mail address via googlegroups.com (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo) to Google Group: soc.genealogy.medieval, 2 Nov 2011, https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo. Hereinafter cited as "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020."
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 4: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 1 Oct 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."
Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2,3
M, #23636, b. circa 925
Father | Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu2 b. c 805, d. bt 863 - 864 |
Mother | Berthe de Ponthieu2 b. c 805, d. b 859 |
Reference | GAV28 |
Last Edited | 1 Oct 2020 |
Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil married Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube.4,2,1,3
Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 925.4
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.
I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""
VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.3,5,6,7,8,9,2,10,11
Reference: Genealogics cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.) 3:676.3
; This is the same person as ”Hilduin I, Count of Montdidier” at Wikipedia.12 GAV-28. Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was also known as Helpuin I (?) Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube.4
; Per Weis: “Helpuin I, b. abt. 925, Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m. Hersende, Countess of Rameru.”.4
; Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Herloin ou Hilduin 1er de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil ° ~830 +~878
ép. Hélissende de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube”.2
Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 925.4
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.
I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had a son:
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863; m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had a son:
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy
III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926; m NN, had a son:
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy
IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy
V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956; m NN, relationship to following unknown:
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**
VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
VI1. (no predecessors shown)
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.
Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
"As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin (IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died 956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.
"We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
"The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."
"We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
"The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."
My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""
VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
VII.1 (predecessors are "unclear"
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy
The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.3,5,6,7,8,9,2,10,11
Reference: Genealogics cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.) 3:676.3
; This is the same person as ”Hilduin I, Count of Montdidier” at Wikipedia.12 GAV-28. Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was also known as Helpuin I (?) Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube.4
; Per Weis: “Helpuin I, b. abt. 925, Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m. Hersende, Countess of Rameru.”.4
; Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Herloin ou Hilduin 1er de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil ° ~830 +~878
ép. Hélissende de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube”.2
Family | Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube |
Children |
|
Citations
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
- [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
- [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-19, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
- [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, Seigneurs de Ramerupt, Comtes de Montdidier: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Montdidier, Comtes de Dammartin, & Seigneurs de Ramerupt, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montdidier-Dammartin-Ramerupt.pdf
- [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, COMTES de MONTREUIL: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_Toc494871036
- [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed, Line 151A-21, p. 147.
- [S4812] Peter Stewart, "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020: "Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?"," e-mail message from e-mail address via googlegroups.com (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo) to Google Group: soc.genealogy.medieval, 2 Nov 2011, https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo. Hereinafter cited as "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020."
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 4: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
- [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 1 Oct 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."
- [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilduin_I,_Count_of_Montdidier. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3.
- [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin II: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120705&tree=LEO
- [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed, Line 151A-20, p. 147.
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1
M, #23637, b. circa 860, d. between 925 and 926
Father | Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1 b. c 925 |
Mother | Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube1 |
Reference | GAV27 |
Last Edited | 30 Sep 2020 |
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 860.1
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died between 925 and 926.2
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 926; fighting against the Normans.1
GAV-27.
; This is the same person as ”Helgaud de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).3 He was Comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier en 881 between 877 and 926.4
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died between 925 and 926.2
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 926; fighting against the Normans.1
GAV-27.
; This is the same person as ”Helgaud de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).3 He was Comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier en 881 between 877 and 926.4
Family | |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2858
- [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Helgaud de Montreuil: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helgaud_de_Montreuil. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
- [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Liste des comtes de Ponthieu: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2
M, #23638, b. circa 890, d. 946
Father | Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil3 b. c 860, d. bt 925 - 926 |
Reference | GAV32 |
Last Edited | 30 Sep 2020 |
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil married (?) de Dammartin.2
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 890.2
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 946; killed by the Danes.2
GAV-32.
; This is the same person as ”Herluin de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).4 He was comte de Montreuil et d'Amiens (944-945), avoué de Saint-Riquier between 926 and 945.5
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 890.2
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 946; killed by the Danes.2
GAV-32.
; This is the same person as ”Herluin de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).4 He was comte de Montreuil et d'Amiens (944-945), avoué de Saint-Riquier between 926 and 945.5
Family 1 | (?) de Dammartin |
Child |
Family 2 | |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2859
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2858
- [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Herluin de Montreuil: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herluin_de_Montreuil. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
- [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Liste des comtes de Ponthieu: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2860
Rotgaire/Roger (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1
M, #23639, d. after 957
Father | Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil2 b. c 890, d. 946 |
Mother | (?) de Dammartin1 |
Last Edited | 30 Sep 2020 |
Rotgaire/Roger (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died after 957.3,4
; This is the same person as ”Roger de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).5 He was comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier between 945 and 948.4
; This is the same person as ”Roger de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).5 He was comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier between 945 and 948.4
Citations
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2859
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2860
- [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Liste des comtes de Ponthieu: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
- [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Roger de Montreuil: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_de_Montreuil
Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2
M, #23640, b. circa 915, d. circa 980
Father | Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil3,2 b. c 890, d. 946 |
Reference | GAV31 |
Last Edited | 26 Aug 2009 |
Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 915.2
Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died circa 980.2
GAV-31.
Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died circa 980.2
GAV-31.
Family | |
Child |
|
Citations
- [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2861
- [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
- [S812] e-mail address, updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2860