Adele d'Arkel1

F, #23612
ReferenceEDV30
Last Edited4 Nov 2020
     Adele d'Arkel married Arnoul III de Crequy, son of Arnoul II de Crequy and Valpurge d'Argouins.1

     EDV-30.

Arnoul II de Crequy1

M, #23613, d. 937
FatherOdooere de Créquy2
MotherYolande (?) of Cleves3
ReferenceEDV31
Last Edited6 Nov 2020
     Arnoul II de Crequy married Valpurge d'Argouins.4,1

Arnoul II de Crequy died in 937.1
     EDV-31.

Valpurge d'Argouins1

F, #23614
ReferenceEDV31
Last Edited4 Nov 2020
     Valpurge d'Argouins married Arnoul II de Crequy, son of Odooere de Créquy and Yolande (?) of Cleves.1,2

     EDV-31.

Odooere de Créquy1

M, #23615
FatherArnoul I de Crequy le Vieil2 d. 897
MotherIgnode de Harlebec3
ReferenceEDV32
Last Edited6 Nov 2020
     Odooere de Créquy married Yolande (?) of Cleves, daughter of Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves and Maud (?).1

     EDV-32.

Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil1

M, #23617, d. 897
ReferenceEDV33
Last Edited10 Nov 2020
     Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil married Ignode de Harlebec, daughter of Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec.2

Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil died in 897.1
     EDV-33.

Ignode de Harlebec1

F, #23618
FatherGodfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec2 d. 862
ReferenceEDV33
Last Edited7 Nov 2020
     Ignode de Harlebec married Arnoul I de Crequy le Vieil.1

     EDV-33.

Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec1

M, #23619, d. 862
FatherEnguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders2 b. c 775, d. 825
ReferenceEDV34
Last Edited6 Nov 2020
     Godfrey de Boullion Count of Harlebec died in 862.1
     EDV-34.

Family

Child

Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders1,2

M, #23620, b. circa 775, d. 825
Last Edited27 Oct 2020
     Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders was born circa 775.
Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders died in 825.2
     He was 2nd Count of Flanders.2 Enguerrand/Ingelram/Roland (?) Governor of Flanders was also known as Enguerrand (?) Count.

Citations

  1. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Flandres.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  3. [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I888

Alice d'Oisy1

F, #23621
Last Edited20 Sep 2020
     Alice d'Oisy married Ramelin II de Créquy, son of Arnoul III de Crequy and Adele d'Arkel.1

Family

Ramelin II de Créquy d. c 986

Mary Campbell1

F, #23622
FatherColin Campbell 1st Earl of Argyll, 2nd Lord Campbell2 d. 19 May 1493
MotherIsobel (or Elizabeth) Stewart2 d. 26 Oct 1510
Last Edited28 Nov 2002

Family

Angus (?)

Citations

  1. [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page - see MACLEAN, Bt, of Dowart. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site.
  2. [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page.

Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves1

M, #23623, d. 917
FatherLuitgarde (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 881
MotherBertha (?)3
ReferenceEDV34
Last Edited19 Oct 2020
     Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves married Maud (?)4,1

Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves died in 917.1
     EDV-34 GKJ-35.

Maud (?)1

F, #23624
ReferenceEDV34
Last Edited31 Oct 2020
     Maud (?) married Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves, son of Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves and Bertha (?).1,2

     EDV-34.

Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves1

M, #23625, d. 881
FatherEberhard (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 835
MotherBertha (?)3
ReferenceEDV35
Last Edited31 Oct 2020
     Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves married Bertha (?)4,1

Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves died in 881.1
     EDV-35.

Bertha (?)1

F, #23626
ReferenceEDV35
Last Edited22 Oct 2020
     Bertha (?) married Luitgarde (?) Count of Cleves, son of Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves and Bertha (?).1,2

     EDV-35 GKJ-36.

Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves1

M, #23627, d. 835
FatherBaldwin (?) Count of Cleves2 d. 830
ReferenceEDV36
Last Edited27 Oct 2020
     Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves married Bertha (?)3,1

Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves died in 835.1
     EDV-36.

Bertha (?)1

F, #23628
ReferenceEDV36
Last Edited22 Oct 2020
     Bertha (?) married Eberhard (?) Count of Cleves, son of Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves.1,2

     EDV-36 GKJ-37.

Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves1

M, #23629, d. 830
ReferenceEDV37
Last Edited19 Oct 2020
     Baldwin (?) Count of Cleves died in 830.1
     EDV-37 GKJ-38.

Family

Child

Pepin "the Hunchback" (?)1,2

M, #23630, b. before 770, d. 811
FatherCharlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West1,2,3 b. 2 Apr 747, d. 28 Jan 814
MotherHimiltrude (?)1,2 b. c 742, d. c 780
Last Edited13 Sep 2020
     Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was born before 770.1
Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) died in 811.1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference: 63.1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pippin "der Bucklige" (?)1 Pepin "the Hunchback" (?) was also known as Pipin "le Bossu" (?)2

Citations

  1. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Pippin "der Bucklige": http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020003&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  2. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  3. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO

Bertha/Bertrada (?)1,2,3,4,5

F, #23631, b. circa 779, d. after 14 January 823
FatherCharlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West3,6,7,5,8 b. 2 Apr 747, d. 28 Jan 814
MotherHildegardis (?) of Swabia, Countess of Vinzgau, Queen of the Franks3,9,6,7,5,10,11 b. bt 2 May 757 - 30 Apr 761, d. 30 Apr 783
ReferenceGAV30
Last Edited14 Sep 2020
     Bertha/Bertrada (?) was born circa 779.3,7,6,5 She married Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire, son of Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu and Richarde (?), in 795
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.3,12,7,6,13
Bertha/Bertrada (?) died after 14 January 823; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says d. 11 March 826; Med Lands says d. 11 Mar 824 or after.3,6,7,5
     Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 GAV-30.

; This is the same person as Bertha, daughter of Charlemagne at Wikipedia and as Berthe (fille de Charlemagne) at Wikipédia (Fr.)14,15

; Per Med Lands:
     "BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
     "Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
[137] Einhardi Vita Karoli Imperator 18, MGH SS II, p. 453.
[138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.5
She and Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire were Per Genealogy.EU: "A6. [3m.] Bertha, *779/780, +11.3.826; m.787 Augilbert "the Saint" of Ponthieu (*ca 750, +18.2.814.)16"

; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)17"

Citations

  1. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: http://www.genealogics.org/getextras.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  2. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
  3. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  4. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO&PHPSESSID=ddc2127542108d09cf9a72ee0b0e19fd
  5. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#Bertradadied823. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  7. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
  8. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Charlemagne: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO
  9. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hildegardis: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020006&tree=LEO
  10. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#CharlemagneB
  11. [S1702] The Henry Project: The ancestors of king Henry II of England, An experiment in cooperative medieval genealogy on the internet (now hosted by the American Society of Genealogists, ASG), online https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/, Hildegarde: https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/hilde001.htm. Hereinafter cited as The Henry Project.
  12. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
  13. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814
  14. [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha,_daughter_of_Charlemagne. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
  15. [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Berthe (fille de Charlemagne): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthe_(fille_de_Charlemagne). Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
  16. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  17. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  18. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
  19. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hartnid: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020035&tree=LEO

Angus (?)1

M, #23632
FatherJohn MacDonald Lord of the Isles, 11th (last) Earl of Ross1
Last Edited28 Nov 2002

Citations

  1. [S1396] Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site, online http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/peerageandgentry/sitepages/home.asp, Argyll Family Page. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage & Gentry Web Site.

Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire1,2,3

M, #23633, b. circa 750, d. 18 February 814
FatherNithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu5,6,4
MotherRicharde (?)3,4
ReferenceGAV30
Last Edited29 May 2020
     Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was born circa 750.2,1,4 He married Bertha/Bertrada (?), daughter of Charlemagne (?) King of the Franks and Emperor of the West and Hildegardis (?) of Swabia, Countess of Vinzgau, Queen of the Franks, in 795
; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says m. 787.1,7,8,5,4
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire died on 18 February 814 at Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France (now).2,1,3,4,9
Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was buried after 18 February 814 at Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France; From Find A Grave:
     BIRTH     unknownm France
     DEATH     unknown, Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
     Saint Angilbert (died 18 February 814) was a Frank who served Charlemagne as a diplomat, abbot, poet and semi-son-in-law. He was of noble Frankish parentage, and educated at the palace school in Aquae Grani (Aachen) under Alcuin. He is venerated as a saint, on the day of his death—18 February. When Charlemagne sent his young son Pepin to Italy as King of the Lombards Angilbert went along as primicerius palatii, a high administrator of the satellite court. As the friend and adviser of Pepin, he assisted for a while in the government of Italy. Angilbert delivered the document on Iconoclasm from the Frankish Synod of Frankfurt to Pope Adrian I, and was later sent on three important embassies to the pope, in 792, 794 and 796.
     In 790 he was named abbot of Centulum, also called Sancti Richarii monasterium (Saint-Riquier) in northern France, where his brilliant rule gained for him later the renown of a saint. It was not uncommon for the Merovingian, Carolingian, or later kings to make laymen abbots of monasteries; the layman would often use the income of the monastery as his own and leave the monks a bare minimum for the necessary expenses of the foundation. Angilbert, in contrast, spent a great deal rebuilding Saint-Riquier, and when he completed it Charlemagne spent Easter of the year 800 there. Angilbert's non-sacramental relationship with Bertha was evidently recognized by the court - if she had not been the daughter of the King historians might refer to her as his concubine. They had at least two sons, one of whom, Nithard, became a notable figure in the mid-9th century. Control of marriage and the meanings of legitimacy were hotly contested in the Middle Ages. Bertha and Angilbert are an example of how resistance to the idea of a sacramental marriage could coincide with holding church offices.
     His poems reveal the culture and tastes of a man of the world, enjoying the closest intimacy with the imperial family. He accompanied Charlemagne to Rome in 800 and was one of the witnesses to his will in 814. Angilbert was the Homer of the emperor's literary circle, and was the probable author of an epic, of which the fragment which has been preserved describes the life at the palace and the meeting between Charlemagne and Leo III. Angilbert's poems have been published by E. Dummler in the Monumenta Germaniae Historica.
     Family Members
     Children
          Nithard de Ponthieu
     BURIAL     Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint-Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France
     Created by: Kat
     Added: 29 Nov 2012
     Find a Grave Memorial 101486783.9
      ; Per Med Lands:
     "BERTRADA [Berta] ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles & Hildegard by Einhard[137]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[138]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[139]. The Chronicon Fontanellense records that Charles I King of the Franks proposed a marriage between “Offæ Rege Anglorum sive Merciorum…filiam” and “Carolus iunior”, but that King Offa refused unless “Berta filia Caroli Magni” was also married to his son which was unacceptable to the Frankish king[140]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[141]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[142]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[143]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[144]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[145].
     "Mistress: (from [795]) of ANGILBERT "the Saint", son of [NITHARD & his wife Richarda] ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard)."
Med Lands cites:
[137] Einhardi Vita Karoli Imperator 18, MGH SS II, p. 453.
[138] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[139] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[140] Chronicon Fontanellense XVI, Spicilegium II, p. 278.
[141] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[142] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[143] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[144] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[145] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.10
He and Bertha/Bertrada (?) were Per Genealogy.EU: "A6. [3m.] Bertha, *779/780, +11.3.826; m.787 Augilbert "the Saint" of Ponthieu (*ca 750, +18.2.814.)11" GAV-30.

; Per Med Lands:
     "[ANGILBERT "the Saint" ([750]-18 Feb 814, bur Saint-Riquier, église du Saint-Sauveur et de Saint-Richard). Nithard records that his father Angilbert "was a descendant of a family not unknown in those days, Madhelgaud, Richard and he came from the same stock"[507]. No proof has been found that Angilbert was the son of Nithard but there must have been a close relationship between the two in view of Angilbert giving his older son the same name. Leader of the council of Pepin King of Italy 780-790. He was called the "Homer of the court"[508]. He became a monk at the abbey of Saint-Riquier 790, elected Abbé 794. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” was granted “totius maritimæ terræ Ducatus”, in addition to “Palatini honoris”, and that he visited “Pontivum” after accepting the dukedom[509]. The Chronicon Centulensis records the death of “Angilbertus” in the same year as Emperor Charlemagne[510].
     "Mistress (1): (from [795]) BERTRADA [Berta], daughter of CHARLES I King of the Franks & his second wife Hildegard ([779/80]-11 Mar, 824 or after). "Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam" are named daughters of King Charles and Hildegard by Einhard[511]. Angilbert's poem Ad Pippinum Italiæ regum names (in order) "Chrodthrudis…Berta…Gisla et Theodrada" as daughters of King Charles[512]. Theodulf's poem Ad Carolum Rege changes the order slightly when he names "Berta…Chrodtrudh …Gisla…Rothaidh…Hiltrudh, Tetdrada" as daughters of the king[513]. She may have been the daughter whose hand in marriage Offa King of Mercia requested for his son Ecgfrith as a condition for agreeing to her father's proposal that her older brother Charles should marry one of Offa's daughters[514]. Her father kept her and her sisters at the court of Aix-la-Chapelle refusing them permission to marry, but she was banished from court by her brother Emperor Louis I on his accession[515]. The Vita Angilberti records the relationship between "Berta filia [rex de regina Hildigarda]" and "domnus Angilbertus"[516]. The Chronicon Centulensis records that “Angilbertus” married “regis filiam Bertam” and that they had “duos filios Harnidum et Nithardum”[517]. Nithard names Bertha, daughter of King Charles, as his mother[518]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Denis records the death "V Id Mar" of "Berta filia Karoli imperatoris qui dedit superiorem Curtem"[519].]"
Med Lands cites:
[507] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[508] Letter of [796] from Charles I King of the Franks to Angilbert, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 206 footnote 103.
[509] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[510] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 372.
[511] Einhard 18, p. 453.
[512] Angilberti (Homeri) Carmina, I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, pp. 359-60.
[513] Theodulfi Carmina, XXV Ad Carolum Rege, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini I, p. 486.
[514] Stenton, F. M. (2001) Anglo-Saxon England 3rd edn (Oxford University Press), p. 220.
[515] Settipani (1993), pp. 204 and 205.
[516] Anschero, Vita Angilberti 2, MGH SS XV.I, p. 180.
[517] Ex Chronico Centulensi sive Sancti Richarii, RHGF V, p. 371.
[518] Nithard IV.5, p. 172.
[519] Obituaires de Sens Tome I.1, Abbaye de Saint-Denis, p. 310.4


; This is the same person as Angilbert at Wikipedia and as Angilbert at Wikipédia (Fr.)12,13

Reference: Genealogics cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.7 Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire was conseiller du roi d’Italie Pépin 1er.3

; Per Racines et Histoire: "Angilbert Le Saint + 18/02/814 comte de Ponthieu à Abbeville, duc de Francie Maritime, Gouverneur de Ponthieu, Abbé laïc de Centule (Saint-Riquier)
ép. Berthe (fille de Charlemagne, Roi des Francs, Empereur d’Occident, et d’Hildegarde.)14"

Family

Bertha/Bertrada (?) b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823
Children

Citations

  1. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  2. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  3. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  4. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  5. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  6. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda
  7. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
  8. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO
  9. [S2374] Find a Grave, online http://www.findagrave.com/, Find a Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 29 May 2020), memorial page for Saint Angilbert of Centula (unknown–unknown), Find a Grave Memorial no. 101486783, citing Saint Riquier Abbatiale, Saint-Riquier, Departement de la Somme, Picardie, France ; Maintained by Kat (contributor 47496397), at: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/101486783/saint_angilbert-of_centula. Hereinafter cited as Find a Grave.
  10. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#Bertradadied823
  11. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  12. [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angilbert. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
  13. [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angilbert. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
  14. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  15. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
  16. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  17. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hartnid: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020035&tree=LEO

Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu1,2,3,4

M, #23634, b. circa 796, d. 18 May 845
FatherAngilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire3,5,6,7,8,9 b. c 750, d. 18 Feb 814
MotherBertha/Bertrada (?)2,3,6,10,9 b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823
Last Edited29 May 2020
     Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu was born circa 796; Genealogy.EU (Carolin 1 page) says b. ca 800.3,2,4
Nithard "the Chronicler" (?) Governor of Ponthieu died on 18 May 845; died in battle; Rainces et Histoire says d. 15/5/845.2,3,4
      ; Nithard "The Chronicler", *ca 800, +15.5.845, he was ancestor of Counts de Ponthieu.2 He was abbé laïc de Saint-Riquier.4

; Leo van de Pas cites: Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference 70.3

Citations

  1. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  2. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, online http://genealogy.euweb.cz/index.html, unknown author (e-mail address), downloaded updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  3. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Nithard: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020034&tree=LEO
  4. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  5. [S1438] Miroslav Marek, updated 15 May 2003, Carolin 1 page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/carolin/carolin1.html
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  7. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Angilbert: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020033&tree=LEO
  8. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  9. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  10. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Bertha: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020032&tree=LEO

Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu1,2

M, #23635, b. circa 805, d. between 863 and 864
FatherOswin (?)3
ReferenceGAV29
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu was born circa 805.1,2 He married Berthe de Ponthieu, daughter of Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire and Bertha/Bertrada (?), in 826.3

Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu died between 863 and 864.2,1
     He was Abbé de St-Riquier.1,2 GAV-29.

; Per Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu): "Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud II de Boulogne (1er de Ponthieu), comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin ou Othon, comte de Boulogne) ° ~805 + 863/64 ”


Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud 1er comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin) ° ~805 + 863 ”.2,1
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.

I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had a son:
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863; m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had a son:
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy

III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926; m NN, had a son:
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy

V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956; m NN, relationship to following unknown:
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**

VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
VI1. (no predecessors shown)
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.

Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
     "As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin (IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died 956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.
     "We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
     "The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."

My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""

VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
VII.1 (predecessors are "unclear"
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy

     The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.4,5,6,7,8,9,1,10,11

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  3. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2.
  4. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  5. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, Seigneurs de Ramerupt, Comtes de Montdidier: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Montdidier, Comtes de Dammartin, & Seigneurs de Ramerupt, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montdidier-Dammartin-Ramerupt.pdf
  7. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, COMTES de MONTREUIL: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_Toc494871036
  8. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-21, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
  9. [S4812] Peter Stewart, "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020: "Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?"," e-mail message from e-mail address via googlegroups.com (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo) to Google Group: soc.genealogy.medieval, 2 Nov 2011, https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo. Hereinafter cited as "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020."
  10. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 4: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  11. [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 1 Oct 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."

Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2,3

M, #23636, b. circa 925
FatherHelgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu2 b. c 805, d. bt 863 - 864
MotherBerthe de Ponthieu2 b. c 805, d. b 859
ReferenceGAV28
Last Edited1 Oct 2020
     Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil married Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube.4,2,1,3
Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 925.4
      ; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.

I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had a son:
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863; m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had a son:
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy

III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926; m NN, had a son:
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy

V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956; m NN, relationship to following unknown:
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**

VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
VI1. (no predecessors shown)
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.

Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
     "As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin (IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died 956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.
     "We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
     "The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."

My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""

VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
VII.1 (predecessors are "unclear"
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy

     The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.3,5,6,7,8,9,2,10,11

Reference: Genealogics cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.) 3:676.3

; This is the same person as ”Hilduin I, Count of Montdidier” at Wikipedia.12 GAV-28. Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was also known as Helpuin I (?) Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube.4

; Per Weis: “Helpuin I, b. abt. 925, Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m. Hersende, Countess of Rameru.”.4

; Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Herloin ou Hilduin 1er de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil ° ~830 +~878
ép. Hélissende de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube”.2

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  3. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  4. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-19, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
  5. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, Seigneurs de Ramerupt, Comtes de Montdidier: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Montdidier, Comtes de Dammartin, & Seigneurs de Ramerupt, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montdidier-Dammartin-Ramerupt.pdf
  7. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, COMTES de MONTREUIL: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_Toc494871036
  8. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed, Line 151A-21, p. 147.
  9. [S4812] Peter Stewart, "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020: "Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?"," e-mail message from e-mail address via googlegroups.com (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo) to Google Group: soc.genealogy.medieval, 2 Nov 2011, https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo. Hereinafter cited as "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020."
  10. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 4: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  11. [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 1 Oct 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."
  12. [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilduin_I,_Count_of_Montdidier. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
  13. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3.
  14. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin II: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120705&tree=LEO
  15. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed, Line 151A-20, p. 147.

Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1

M, #23637, b. circa 860, d. between 925 and 926
FatherHerloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1 b. c 925
MotherHersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube1
ReferenceGAV27
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 860.1
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died between 925 and 926.2
Helgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 926; fighting against the Normans.1
     GAV-27.

; This is the same person as ”Helgaud de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).3 He was Comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier en 881 between 877 and 926.4

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S812] e-mail address, online http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bferris, Jr. William R. Ferris (unknown location), downloaded updated 4 Apr 2002, http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bferris&id=I2858
  3. [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Helgaud de Montreuil: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helgaud_de_Montreuil. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
  4. [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Liste des comtes de Ponthieu: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu

Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2

M, #23638, b. circa 890, d. 946
FatherHelgaud II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil3 b. c 860, d. bt 925 - 926
ReferenceGAV32
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil married (?) de Dammartin.2
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 890.2
Herloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died in 946; killed by the Danes.2
     GAV-32.

; This is the same person as ”Herluin de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).4 He was comte de Montreuil et d'Amiens (944-945), avoué de Saint-Riquier between 926 and 945.5

Family 2

Child

Rotgaire/Roger (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1

M, #23639, d. after 957
FatherHerloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil2 b. c 890, d. 946
Mother(?) de Dammartin1
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Rotgaire/Roger (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died after 957.3,4
      ; This is the same person as ”Roger de Montreuil” at Wikipédia (FR).5 He was comte de Montreuil, avoué de Saint-Riquier between 945 and 948.4

Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil1,2

M, #23640, b. circa 915, d. circa 980
FatherHerloin/Herluin II (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil3,2 b. c 890, d. 946
ReferenceGAV31
Last Edited26 Aug 2009
     Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil was born circa 915.2
Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil died circa 980.2
     GAV-31.