Raoul (?) de Mari, seigneur de Bohon1

M, #71371, b. circa 875, d. circa 950
ReferenceGAV29
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Raoul (?) de Mari, seigneur de Bohon was born circa 875.1
Raoul (?) de Mari, seigneur de Bohon died circa 950.1
     GAV-29.

Family

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bohun.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Matilda (?)1

F, #71372
ReferenceGAV26
Last Edited26 Aug 2009
     Matilda (?) married Edward "the Sheriff" d'Evreux of Salisbury, son of Walter d'Evreux Count of Rosmar.1
     GAV-26.

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bohun.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Matilde (Maud) de Bohun1

F, #71373
FatherHumphrey II (Onfroi) «Le Grand» de Bohun Lord Bohun, seigneur de Tatterford1 b. 1087, d. 1129
MotherMaud d'Evreux of Salisbury1
Last Edited25 May 2009

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bohun.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Gilbert de Bohun1

M, #71374, b. circa 1260
FatherSir Humphrey VI de Bohun Lord Bohun, châtelain de Winchester1 d. 27 Oct 1265
MotherJoan de Quincy1 b. c 1245, d. 25 Nov 1283
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Gilbert de Bohun was born circa 1260.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bohun.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Richarde (?)1

F, #71375
FatherHieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu2,3 d. a 782
MotherErmentrude/Erscheswinda (?) Princesse Gothe2,3
ReferenceGAV31
Last Edited25 Jun 2020
     Richarde (?) married Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu.2,3
     GAV-31.

; Per Med Lands:
     "NITHARD (-after 778). "Pippinus rex Francorum" confirmed the rights of the abbey of Saint-Denis to market customs duties by charter dated 8 Jul 753 which names "fidelibus…Milone, Helmgaudo, Hildegario, [C]hrothardo, Drogone, Baugulfo, [G]islehario, Leuthfredo, Rauhone, Theuderico, Maganario, Nithado, Uualthario, Uulfario et Uuicberti comite palatii nostro"[505]. He owned land in Saalgau in 778.
     "m RICHARDA, daughter of [HIERONYMUS & his wife Ercheswinda/Ermentrudis ---]. She received property from Fulrad [her brother] 769-782[506]."
Med Lands cites:
[505] DD Kar. 1, 6, p. 9.
[506] Settipani (1993), p. 361, which does not cite the primary source.3

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  3. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  4. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814

Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu1

M, #71376
ReferenceGAV31
Last Edited29 May 2020
     Nithard (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu married Richarde (?), daughter of Hieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu and Ermentrude/Erscheswinda (?) Princesse Gothe.2,3
     GAV-31.

; Per Med Lands:
     "NITHARD (-after 778). "Pippinus rex Francorum" confirmed the rights of the abbey of Saint-Denis to market customs duties by charter dated 8 Jul 753 which names "fidelibus…Milone, Helmgaudo, Hildegario, [C]hrothardo, Drogone, Baugulfo, [G]islehario, Leuthfredo, Rauhone, Theuderico, Maganario, Nithado, Uualthario, Uulfario et Uuicberti comite palatii nostro"[505]. He owned land in Saalgau in 778.
     "m RICHARDA, daughter of [HIERONYMUS & his wife Ercheswinda/Ermentrudis ---]. She received property from Fulrad [her brother] 769-782[506]."
Med Lands cites:
[505] DD Kar. 1, 6, p. 9.
[506] Settipani (1993), p. 361, which does not cite the primary source.3


; gouverneur de Ponthieu.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  3. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  4. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Angilbertdied814

Hieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu1,2

M, #71377, d. after 782
FatherCharles Martel "the Hammer" (?) King of the Franks3,2,4,5 b. 23 Aug 688, d. 22 Oct 741
ReferenceGAV32
Last Edited14 Sep 2020
     Hieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu married Ermentrude/Erscheswinda (?) Princesse Gothe; See Wikipédia (Fr.) article on Jérôme and the Med Lands entry for Heironymus for a discussion of whether he married twice: once to a woman named Ermentrude and secondly to a woman named Ercheswinda.6,4,2
Hieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu died after 782.7,4
     ; This is the same person as:
”Hieronymus, son of Charles Martel” at Wikipedia and as
”Jérôme (fils de Charles Martel)” at Wikipédia (Fr.)2,7

; Per Racines et Histoire (Boubers 1): “Hieronymus dit «Martel» (~715) présumé bâtard de Charles «Martel» Gouverneur de Ponthieu
     ép. Ermentrude (ou Ercheswinda ?)”.8 GAV-32.

; Per Med Lands:
     "HIERONYMUS, illegitimate son of Charles "Martel" & his mistress --- (-after [782]). Herimannus names "Hieronimo Pipini fratre"[160]. 754, 775. Abbé de Saint-Quentin. The Vita Fulcuini names "matre Erkensinda, patre Hieronimo, quorum prior de gente Gothorum…alter.4,9
; NB: The relationship between Buvinus Comte de Metz and Boson l'Ancien has been explored by Settipani [1993] and is summarized by Wikipédia (Fr.) as follows:
Hypothèse actuelle
     "Mais cette reconstitution est en contradiction avec les Annales de Saint-Bertin, qui indiquent que la reine Teutberge est la tante maternelle de Boson3. Il en ressort que Bivin ne peut pas être frère de Teutberge, mais marié à une des sœurs de cette dernière.
     "Deux autres documents permettent d'envisager une autre piste pour l'origine de Bivin :
** un diplôme de l'empereur Lothaire Ier confirme en 842 une donation faite par Richard, comte et ostiaire de Louis le Pieux à la demande des exécuteurs testamentaires dont son frère Bivin.
** l'historien Richer, parlant de Charles Constantin, comte de Vienne et arrière-petit-fils de Bivin, le dit de famille royale, mais entachée de bâtardise au niveau de son tritavus, c'est-à-dire son ancêtre à la sixième génération.
     "À partir de ces données, Christian Settipani propose la reconstitution suivante4,5,6 :
1. il considère que la famille royale dont Charles Constantin est membre est la famille carolingienne, et que le terme de « famille » concerne dans ce contexte exclusivement la lignée masculine.
2. il considère que, chronologiquement, le tritavus est un fils bâtard de Charles Martel.
3. les seuls fils bâtards connus de Charles Martel sont Remi, évêque de Rouen, qui n'a pas eu de descendance, et le comte Jérôme. Pour Settipani, le tritavus de Charles Constantin est le comte Jérôme.
4. Les prénoms de Richard, porté par un frère et un fils de Bivin, sont peu fréquents au viiie siècle et la seconde épouse du comte Jérôme est une princesse gothe. Il rapproche le prénom de Richard avec celui de Reccared porté par deux rois des Wisigoths (Reccared Ier et Reccared II) et identifie les générations intermédiaires avec les quelques Richard connus."
See the attached diagram of the ancestry as proposed by Settipani [1993], from Wikipédia (Fr.)
Conclusion: Settipani's proposals a certainly speculative, and Med Lands offers a critique and some counter-proposals (which are noted in my Med Lands Notes for the individuals concerned. For now, I have chosed to try to reconstruct the lineage as outlined by Settipani (see attached chart). GA Vaut.3,10,11 He was living in 715.1

Family 1

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Jérôme (fils de Charles Martel): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_(fils_de_Charles_Martel). Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
  3. [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Bivin de Vienne: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivin_de_Vienne
  4. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#HieronymusB. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  5. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#CharlesMarteldied741B
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs
    de BOUBERS, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  7. [S1953] Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia, online http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus,_son_of_Charles_Martel. Hereinafter cited as Wikipedia.
  8. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  9. [S4753] Christian Settipani, La Préhistoire des Capétiens, 481-987, première partie - Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (n.p.: Van Kerrebrouck, 1993), pp. 359-360. Hereinafter cited as Settipani [1993] La Préhistoire des Capétiens.
  10. [S4753] Christian Settipani, Settipani [1993] La Préhistoire des Capétiens.
  11. [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 25 June 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."
  12. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#RichardsonHieronymus
  13. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  14. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda

Ermentrude/Erscheswinda (?) Princesse Gothe1,2,3

F, #71378
ReferenceGAV32
Last Edited25 Jun 2020
     Ermentrude/Erscheswinda (?) Princesse Gothe married Hieronymus/Jérôme dit «Martel» (?) gouverneur de Ponthieu, son of Charles Martel "the Hammer" (?) King of the Franks; See Wikipédia (Fr.) article on Jérôme and the Med Lands entry for Heironymus for a discussion of whether he married twice: once to a woman named Ermentrude and secondly to a woman named Ercheswinda.4,5,6
     ; Per Med Lands:
     "HIERONYMUS, illegitimate son of Charles "Martel" & his mistress --- (-after [782]). Herimannus names "Hieronimo Pipini fratre"[160]. 754, 775. Abbé de Saint-Quentin. The Vita Fulcuini names "matre Erkensinda, patre Hieronimo, quorum prior de gente Gothorum…alter.5,7 GAV-32.
; NB: The relationship between Buvinus Comte de Metz and Boson l'Ancien has been explored by Settipani [1993] and is summarized by Wikipédia (Fr.) as follows:
Hypothèse actuelle
     "Mais cette reconstitution est en contradiction avec les Annales de Saint-Bertin, qui indiquent que la reine Teutberge est la tante maternelle de Boson3. Il en ressort que Bivin ne peut pas être frère de Teutberge, mais marié à une des sœurs de cette dernière.
     "Deux autres documents permettent d'envisager une autre piste pour l'origine de Bivin :
** un diplôme de l'empereur Lothaire Ier confirme en 842 une donation faite par Richard, comte et ostiaire de Louis le Pieux à la demande des exécuteurs testamentaires dont son frère Bivin.
** l'historien Richer, parlant de Charles Constantin, comte de Vienne et arrière-petit-fils de Bivin, le dit de famille royale, mais entachée de bâtardise au niveau de son tritavus, c'est-à-dire son ancêtre à la sixième génération.
     "À partir de ces données, Christian Settipani propose la reconstitution suivante4,5,6 :
1. il considère que la famille royale dont Charles Constantin est membre est la famille carolingienne, et que le terme de « famille » concerne dans ce contexte exclusivement la lignée masculine.
2. il considère que, chronologiquement, le tritavus est un fils bâtard de Charles Martel.
3. les seuls fils bâtards connus de Charles Martel sont Remi, évêque de Rouen, qui n'a pas eu de descendance, et le comte Jérôme. Pour Settipani, le tritavus de Charles Constantin est le comte Jérôme.
4. Les prénoms de Richard, porté par un frère et un fils de Bivin, sont peu fréquents au viiie siècle et la seconde épouse du comte Jérôme est une princesse gothe. Il rapproche le prénom de Richard avec celui de Reccared porté par deux rois des Wisigoths (Reccared Ier et Reccared II) et identifie les générations intermédiaires avec les quelques Richard connus."
See the attached diagram of the ancestry as proposed by Settipani [1993], from Wikipédia (Fr.)
Conclusion: Settipani's proposals a certainly speculative, and Med Lands offers a critique and some counter-proposals (which are noted in my Med Lands Notes for the individuals concerned. For now, I have chosed to try to reconstruct the lineage as outlined by Settipani (see attached chart). GA Vaut.3,8,9

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#NithardMRicharda. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  3. [S4742] Wikipédia - L'encyclopédie libre, online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Bivin de Vienne: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivin_de_Vienne. Hereinafter cited as Wikipédia (FR).
  4. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs
    de BOUBERS, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  5. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#HieronymusB
  6. [S4742] Wikipédia (FR), online https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal, Jérôme (fils de Charles Martel): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_(fils_de_Charles_Martel).
  7. [S4753] Christian Settipani, La Préhistoire des Capétiens, 481-987, première partie - Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (n.p.: Van Kerrebrouck, 1993), pp. 359-360. Hereinafter cited as Settipani [1993] La Préhistoire des Capétiens.
  8. [S4753] Christian Settipani, Settipani [1993] La Préhistoire des Capétiens.
  9. [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 25 June 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."

Thierry I de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu1

M, #71379
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Thierry I de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu was living between 620 and 640.1

Family

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

(?) de Ponthieu1

F, #71380
FatherThierry I de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu1
Last Edited25 May 2009
     (?) de Ponthieu married Walmar (Wilmer) (?) de Boulogne.1
     (?) de Ponthieu was living in 660.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Walmar (Wilmer) (?) de Boulogne1

M, #71381
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Walmar (Wilmer) (?) de Boulogne married (?) de Ponthieu, daughter of Thierry I de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Thierry II de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu1

M, #71382, b. 685, d. 734
FatherWalmar (Wilmer) (?) de Boulogne1
Mother(?) de Ponthieu1
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Thierry II de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu was born in 685.1
Thierry II de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu died in 734.1

Family

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

(?) de Ponthieu1

F, #71383, b. circa 725
FatherThierry II de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu1 b. 685, d. 734
Last Edited25 May 2009
     (?) de Ponthieu married Waudbert VIII (?) de Lommois.1 (?) de Ponthieu was born circa 725.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Waudbert VIII (?) de Lommois1

M, #71384
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Waudbert VIII (?) de Lommois married (?) de Ponthieu, daughter of Thierry II de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu.1

Family

(?) de Ponthieu b. c 725
Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Richard (?) d'Amiens1

M, #71385
FatherWaudbert VIII (?) de Lommois1
Mother(?) de Ponthieu1 b. c 725
Last Edited25 May 2009

Family

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

NN (?) d'Amiens1

F, #71386
FatherRichard (?) d'Amiens1
Last Edited28 Nov 2020

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Arsinde (?)1

F, #71387, b. circa 798
FatherAngilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire1,2 b. c 750, d. 18 Feb 814
MotherBertha/Bertrada (?)2,3 b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823
Last Edited29 May 2020
     Arsinde (?) was born circa 798.1 She married Rémi (?) comte de Reims et de Roucy in 813.1

Family

Rémi (?) comte de Reims et de Roucy b. c 790, d. a 824

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  3. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf

Rémi (?) comte de Reims et de Roucy1

M, #71388, b. circa 790, d. after 824
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Rémi (?) comte de Reims et de Roucy was born circa 790.1 He married Arsinde (?), daughter of Angilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire and Bertha/Bertrada (?), in 813.1
Rémi (?) comte de Reims et de Roucy died after 824.1
     ; per Racines et Histoire: "postérité dont Berthe de Reims.1"

Family

Arsinde (?) b. c 798

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Berthe de Ponthieu1

F, #71389, b. circa 805, d. before 859
FatherAngilbert "the Saint" (?) Governor of Ponthieu, Abbe of St. Richaire1,2 b. c 750, d. 18 Feb 814
MotherBertha/Bertrada (?)2,3 b. c 779, d. a 14 Jan 823
ReferenceGAV29
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Berthe de Ponthieu was born circa 805.1 She married Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu, son of Oswin (?), in 826.1
Berthe de Ponthieu died before 859.1
     ; Per Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu): "Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud II de Boulogne (1er de Ponthieu), comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin ou Othon, comte de Boulogne) ° ~805 + 863/64 ”


Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Berthe de Ponthieu ° ~805 + avant 859
ép. 826 Helgaud 1er comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (fils d’Oswin) ° ~805 + 863 ”.4,5 GAV-29.
; NB: The lineage of the Comtes de Montdidier and Seigneurs de Ramerupt is confusing to me. So far, I have consulted four sources: Racines et Histoire, Genealogics, Med Lands, and Weis. They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point in all lineages is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut.

I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had a son:
**I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945; m1 NN de Dammartin; m2 NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957; m NN, had a son:
******I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980; m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009; m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863; m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had a son:
**II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878; m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had a son:
****II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926; m NN, had a son:
******II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier; m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had a son:
********II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage); m Alix** de Roucy

III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerup) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926; m NN, had a son:
**III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945; m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin; m2) NN, had a son (mother not identified):
****III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957; m NN, had a son:
******III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980; m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had a son:
********III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009; m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies; m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
**IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had a son:
******IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026; m NN, had a son:
********IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063; m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy

V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956; m NN, relationship to following unknown:
**V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
****V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993; m NN, possibly, had a son:
******V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032; m NN, had a son:
********V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063; m Adelaide de Roucy**

VI. Weis, in a new line added to the 8th edition, shows:
VI1. (no predecessors shown)
**VI2. Helpuin I Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, b ca 925; m. Hersend, Countess de Rameru [sic], had a son:
****VI3. Hilduin I (or II), b. ca 950 d bef 1000, had a son:
******VI4. Hilduin II (or III) de Rameru [sic], b. ca 985 d. ca 1037, had a son:
********VI5. Hilduin** II (or III) de Rameru [sic] Count of Montdidier, Lord of Rameru [sic], Count of Roucy, b. ca 1010, d. 1063; m. ca 1031 Adele de Roucy** d. 1062.

Conclusion: I can't resolve all of the variation in these lineages, but I am convinced that some of the confusion may relate to the use of the name Herluin and Hildouin in so many families (that on occasion intermarried) and possible confusion between the Ponthieu, Montreuil, Boulogne and Ramerupt titles. In effort to resolve the ancestry of Hilduin** who m. Adele**, I posted a query on soc.genealogy.medieval, and received the following useful reply from Peter Stewart:
     "As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin (IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died 956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.
     "We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de Verzy abbey.
     "The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown. Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth repeating."

My query also elicited the comment from P. J. Evans: "Moriarty's manuscript ... says that the early generations are "unclear""

VII. The Stewart & Evans comments imply the following:
VII.1 (predecessors are "unclear"
**VII.2 Hilduin Count live 977/92; m. Hersende heiress of Arcis-sur-Aube and Ramerupt, had a son:
****VII.3 Hilduin
******VII.4 Manasses Comte de Dammartin
******VII.4 Hilduin Count
********VII.5 Hilduin** IV d. 1063; m Alix/Adela** de Roucy

     The Weis and Genealogics lineages are close to being consistent to the "known" facts outlined by Stewart. The partial consistency in generations 3, 4 and 5 between Genealogics and Med Lands encourages me to accept those three generations as likely on track. However, the major differences between the three Racine et Histoire lineages and the other three sources leave me too confused to draw a clear conclusion. (Peter Steward completely rejects Racines et Histoire as a source). In its discussion of the Comtes de Montreuil, Med Lands shows individuals who correspond to Racine et Histoire's (Montdidier) and R&H (Ponthieu) first three generations (I.1 - I.3 and III.1 - III.3), but shows no children for I.3/III.3 Roger and makes no connection to the Seigneurs de Ramerupt line shown by Genealogics and Med Lands. I have amended my database to be reasonably consistent with the Weis, Genealogics, and Stewart lineages, but have not yet completely severed connections to earlier generations. GA Vaut.6,7,8,9,10,11,5,12,13

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  3. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS (1), p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  4. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  5. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  6. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  7. [S2203] Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG): MEDIEVAL LANDS - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, Seigneurs de Ramerupt, Comtes de Montdidier: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372. Hereinafter cited as FMG Medieval Lands Website.
  8. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Montdidier, Comtes de Dammartin, & Seigneurs de Ramerupt, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montdidier-Dammartin-Ramerupt.pdf
  9. [S2203] FMG Medieval Lands Website, online http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm, COMTES de MONTREUIL: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_Toc494871036
  10. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-21, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
  11. [S4812] Peter Stewart, "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020: "Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?"," e-mail message from e-mail address via googlegroups.com (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo) to Google Group: soc.genealogy.medieval, 2 Nov 2011, https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nMorhx81xOo. Hereinafter cited as "Stewart email 1 Oct 2020."
  12. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 4: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  13. [S1549] "Author's comment", various, Gregory A. Vaut (e-mail address), to unknown recipient (unknown recipient address), 1 Oct 2020; unknown repository, unknown repository address. Hereinafter cited as "GA Vaut Comment."

Oswin (?)1

M, #71390
ReferenceGAV30
Last Edited26 Aug 2009
     GAV-30.

Family

Child

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Berthe de Ponthieu1

F, #71391
FatherHelgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu1 b. c 805, d. bt 863 - 864
MotherBerthe de Ponthieu1 b. c 805, d. b 859
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Berthe de Ponthieu married Hernequin (?) comte de Boulogne.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Hernequin (?) comte de Boulogne1

M, #71392, d. 882
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Hernequin (?) comte de Boulogne married Berthe de Ponthieu, daughter of Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu and Berthe de Ponthieu.1
Hernequin (?) comte de Boulogne died in 882.1
     ; per Racines et Histoire: "neveu et vassal de Bauduin Le Chauve, comte de Flandres + 918."1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube1,2

F, #71393
ReferenceGAV28
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube married Herloin/Hilduin I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, son of Helgaud II de Boulogne Comte de Ponthieu and Berthe de Ponthieu.3,1,4,5
     ; Per Weis: “Helpuin I, b. abt. 925, Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube; m. Hersende, Countess of Rameru.”.3

; Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Herloin ou Hilduin 1er de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil ° ~830 +~878
ép. Hélissende de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube”.1 GAV-28. Hersende/Hélissende de Ramerupt Dame de Ramerupt, comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube was living in 970.2

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S1490] Genealogics Website (oiginated by Leo van de Pas, continued by Ian Fettes), online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hersende: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120704&tree=LEO. Hereinafter cited as Genealogics Website.
  3. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700: The Lineage of Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Some of Their Descendants, 8th ed. w/ additions by Wm R. and Kaleen E. Beall (Baltimore, 1992: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), Line 151A-19, p. 147. Hereinafter cited as Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed.
  4. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Comtes de Ponthieu, & Montreuil, Saint-Pol, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Ponthieu.pdf
  5. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120703&tree=LEO
  6. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3.
  7. [S1490] Genealogics Website, online http://www.genealogics.org/index.php, Hilduin II: https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120705&tree=LEO
  8. [S2372] Frederick Lewis Weis, Weis [2004] "Ancestral Roots" 8th ed, Line 151A-20, p. 147.

Hersende (?)1

F, #71394
ReferenceGAV26
Last Edited30 Sep 2020
     Hersende (?) married Herloin/Hilduin III de Montdidier seigneur de Ramerupt et de Montdidier, son of Hilduin/Herloin II (?) Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube and Halvise (?) de Laon.2 Hersende (?) married Hildouin III de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, son of Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil; his 1st wife.2
     ; Per Racines et Histoire (de Boubers): “Herloin ou Hilduin III seigneur de Ramerupt et de Montdidier
     ép. ? Hersende (veuve ép. Hilduin III de Ponthieu)”.2 GAV-26.

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.
  2. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 2: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf
  3. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, Famille & Seigneurs de BOUBERS-1, p. 3: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf

(?) de Dammartin1

F, #71395
Last Edited25 May 2009

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Lasseline d'Harcourt1

F, #71396, b. circa 972, d. 26 January 998
Last Edited25 May 2009
     Lasseline d'Harcourt married Hildouin III de Ponthieu comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, son of Guillaume I (?) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil; his 2nd wife.1 Lasseline d'Harcourt was born circa 972.1
Lasseline d'Harcourt died on 26 January 998.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Boubers1.pdf, p. 3. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Jacqueline d’Estouteville dame d’Hambye, Moyon, Briquebec et Gasse1,2

F, #71397
FatherGuyon d'Estouteville2 d. c 1513
MotherIsabelle de Croÿ2
Last Edited5 Jun 2011
     Jacqueline d’Estouteville dame d’Hambye, Moyon, Briquebec et Gasse married Jean III d’Estouteville seigneur d'Estouteville, vicomte de Roncheville, son of Jacques d’Estouteville Sire d'Estouteville and Jeanne Louise d'Albret.1,2

Madeleine de Mailly dame de Conty1

F, #71399
Last Edited13 Jun 2009
     Madeleine de Mailly dame de Conty married Charles de Roye comte de Roucy.1

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bourbon-Dynastie-Royale.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.

Jacqueline de Rohan1

F, #71400
Last Edited13 Jun 2009

Citations

  1. [S2280] Racines et Histoire, online http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/LGN-frameset.html, http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Bourbon-Dynastie-Royale.pdf, p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Racines et Histoire.