Person Page - 2105

     Robert III d'Auvergne Comte d'Auvergne died circa 1145.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 732.¹

     Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont married Isabeau de Montlucon.^3,1
Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont married Huguette (?) Dame de Chamalières
; his 1st wife.⁴ Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont married Philippa (?)
; his 3rd wife?⁵
Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont died on 17 October 1239.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹

     Isabeau de Montlucon married Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont, son of Dauphin (?) Comte de Clermont.^1,2

Isabeau de Montlucon died after 1212.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹ She was living in 1212.¹

     Huguette (?) Dame de Chamalières married Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont, son of Dauphin (?) Comte de Clermont,
; his 1st wife.¹
Huguette (?) Dame de Chamalières died after 1196.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹ She was living in 1196.¹

     Robert I de Clermont Dauphin d'Auvergne, Comte de Clermont married Alesie de Ventadour, daughter of Ebles V de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour and Marie/Marguerite de Turenne, in May 1238
; her 2nd husband.^3,2
Robert I de Clermont Dauphin d'Auvergne, Comte de Clermont died on 12 April 1262.^1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹

     Alesie de Ventadour married Guillaume de Mercoeur seigneur de Gerzat et Planchat, son of Béraud V de Mercoeur seigneur de Mercoeur, vicomte de Gévaudan, Connétable d’Auvergne and Alix de Chamalières-sur-Loire, before 1234
; her 1st husband.^2,5 Alesie de Ventadour married Robert I de Clermont Dauphin d'Auvergne, Comte de Clermont, son of Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont and Huguette (?) Dame de Chamalières, in May 1238
; her 2nd husband.^1,2
Alesie de Ventadour died before November 1260.¹
      ; Alesie; 1m: Guillaume de Mercoeur (+1238); 2m: Robert I Dauphin d'Auvergne, Cte de Clermont (+1262.)²

; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹

; Per Racines et Histoire (Mercoeur): “Guillaume de Mercoeur + dès 1238 seigneur de Gerzat et Planchat (63)
     ép. 1) dès 1234 Alésie de Ventadour + avant 11/1250 (17/05 ?) (fille d’Ebles V, vicomte de Ventadour, et de Marie de Turenne ; ép. 2) dès 05/1238 Robert 1er, comte de Clermont (63), Dauphin d’Auvergne + 12/04/1262 + 12/04/1262 (fils de Guillaume II, comte de Clermont, et d’Huguette de Chamaliè”.⁵

     Philippa (?) married Guillaume II (?) Dauphin et Comte de Clermont, son of Dauphin (?) Comte de Clermont,
; his 3rd wife?¹
Philippa (?) died after 1241.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 733.¹ She was living in 1241.¹

     Ebles IV dit Archambaud de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour married Sibylle de Faye, daughter of Raoul (?) de Chattelerault, before 1174.^5,1,2

Ebles IV dit Archambaud de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour died in 1174.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 765.¹

; Vcte Ebles IV dit Archambaud de Ventadour; m.before 1174 Sibylle, dau.of Raoul de Chatellerault.²

     Sibylle de Faye married Ebles IV dit Archambaud de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour, son of Ebles III de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour and Adelais de Montpellier, before 1174.^1,3,2

      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 765.¹

     Ebles V de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour married Marie (?) de Limoges, daughter of Boson 'Adémar V' (?) Viscount de Limoges and Sarah de Dunstanville,
; his 1st wife.^3,1,2 Ebles V de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour married Marie/Marguerite de Turenne, daughter of Raymond III de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne and Helie de Severac,
; his 2nd wife.^4,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 765.¹

; Vcte Ebles V de Ventadour; 1m: Marie de Limoges; 2m: Marguerite de Turenne; all kids were by 2m.² Ebles V de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour was living in 1214.¹

     Marie (?) de Limoges married Ebles V de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour, son of Ebles IV dit Archambaud de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour and Sibylle de Faye,
; his 1st wife.^1,5,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III/4 765.¹

     Ebles VI de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour married Dauphine (?) de la Tour.²
Ebles VI de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour was born circa 1220.¹
Ebles VI de Ventadour Vicomte de Ventadour died before 12 June 1265.^1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 765.¹

; Vcte Ebles VI de Ventadour, +ca 1265; m.Dauphine de la Tour; for their descendants see http://genealogy.euweb.cz/toulouse/toul3.html.² He was He became a crusader in 1249.¹

      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 766.¹

     Raymond III de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne married Helie de Severac, daughter of Gui de Severac.^1,5,2

Raymond III de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne died before 12 June 1219.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 766.¹

     Helie (?) de Castelnau-de-Bretenoux married Raymond II 'Posthumus' de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne, son of Boson II de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne and Eustorgie d'Anduze.^4,1,5

Helie (?) de Castelnau-de-Bretenoux died after 1190.¹
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 766.¹ She was living in 1190.¹

      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 766.¹

     Raymond II 'Posthumus' de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne married Helie (?) de Castelnau-de-Bretenoux, daughter of Bernard (?) Sire de Castelnau.^1,3,2
Raymond II 'Posthumus' de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne was born after 19 June 1143.¹
Raymond II 'Posthumus' de Turenne Vicomte de Turenne died in 1191 at Akkon, Palestine.^1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: III 766.¹

     Friedrich II von Zollern Graf von Zollern died after 1152.^1,3
      ; Per Med Lands:
     "FRIEDRICH [II] von Zollern (-after [1152]). A 13th century genealogy names (in order) "Burchardum, Egenonem, Fridericum et Gottfridum" as the four sons of "Burchardus comes de Zolre"[1292]. Graf von Zollern. "…Burcardo, Eginone, Gotfrido, Friderico comitibus de Zolr…" signed the charter dated [1134/37] which records the foundation of Kloster Salem[1293]. The History of Salem Monastery lists those present at a court of "duce Friderico", including "Burcardo, Eginone, Gotfrido, Friderico comitibus de Zolr", undated but dateable to [1152][1294]. The order in which the brothers are listed in these two sources, although not entirely consistent with each other, suggests that Friedrich [II] was not the oldest brother.
     "m ---. The name of Friedrich's wife is not known."
Med Lands cites:

     Konrad I (?) Graf von Zollern, Burggraf von Nürnberg married Adelheid von Frontenhausen.^4,1,2,5

Konrad I (?) Graf von Zollern, Burggraf von Nürnberg died on 30 June 1261.^1,2
      ; Bggf Konrad I von Nürnberg (1227-61), +1260/1; m.NN (possibly a dau.of Friedrich II, Gf von Leiningen u.Saarbrücken)/ Adelaide von Frontenhausen (*ca 1190 +ca 1245.)¹

; Leo van de Pas cites: 1. Nachkommen Gorms des Alten 1978. , S. Otto Brenner, Reference: 509
2. Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, 4 volumes, Marburg, 1953, 1975., W. K. Prinz von Isenburg, Reference: I 60
3. Genealogisches Handbuch erloschener böhmischer Herrenstandsfamilien Neustadt an der Aisch, 1973, Roman Freiherr von Procházka, Reference: 174.² He was Burggraf von Nürnberg between 1227 and 1261.¹

     Adelheid von Frontenhausen married Konrad I (?) Graf von Zollern, Burggraf von Nürnberg, son of Friedrich I/III (?) Graf von Zollern, Burggraf von Nürnberg and Sophie von Raabs Burggravine von Nürnberg.^1,2,3,4
Adelheid von Frontenhausen was born circa 1190.²
Adelheid von Frontenhausen died circa 1245.²
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Erzaehlende Stammtafeln zur Europaischen Geschichte I Frankfurt am Main 1994, Andreas Thiele.¹

     Alexandra (?) of Lithuania was born circa 1365.¹ She married Ziemowit IV (?) Duke of Mazovia, Prince of Plock and Kujawia, son of Ziemowit III "Starszy" (?) Duke of Mazowia and Euphemia (?) von Troppau-Ratibor, in 1388
; Leo van de Pas says m. 1388; Jagelo page says m. 1387; Piast 3 page says m. ca 1387.^1,4,2,5
Alexandra (?) of Lithuania died on 19 June 1434.^1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: 1. Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, 4 volumes, Marburg, 1953, 1975., W. K. Prinz von Isenburg, Reference: II 87
2. Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II 125.¹

; [2m.] Alexandra, +19.6.1434; m.1387 Ziemovit IV Piast (*before 1357, +30.4.1426.)²

     Friedrich IV (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg was born in 1287.¹ He married Margarete (?) von Görz before 2 August 1307.¹

Friedrich IV (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg died in 1332.¹
      ; Bggf Friedrich IV von Nürnberg (1297-1332), *1287, +1332, bur Heilsbronn; m.before 2.8.1307 Margarete von Görz (+1348, bur Birkenfeld.)¹

; Burggraf von Nürnberg.¹

     Margarete (?) von Görz married Friedrich IV (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg, son of Friedrich III (?) Bggf von Nurnberg and Helene (?) of Saxony, before 2 August 1307.¹

Margarete (?) von Görz died in 1348.¹

     Margarete (?) of Luxemburg was born on 29 September 1373.^1,2 She married Johann III (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg, son of Friedrich V (?) Burggraf von Nurnberg and Elisabeth (?) von Meissen, before 25 May 1381.^5,1,2

Margarete (?) of Luxemburg died on 4 June 1410 at age 36; buried in Ofen.^1,2
      ; Leo van de Pas cites: Nachkommen Gorms des Alten 1978. , S. Otto Brenner, Reference: 3033.²

     Johann III (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg was born circa 1369.¹ He married Margarete (?) of Luxemburg, daughter of Charles IV de Luxembourg (?) King of Bohemia, Holy Roman Emperor and Elizabeth (?) von Pommern, before 25 May 1381.^1,3,4

Johann III (?) Burggraf von Nürnberg died on 11 June 1420 at Plassenburg, Germany (now); buried in Heilsbronn.¹
      ; Burggraf von Nürnberg.¹

     Friedrich (?) Graf von Zollern, Graf von Hohenberg died after 11 April 1195.^1,2
      ; Per Med Lands: "FRIEDRICH von Zollern (-after 11 Apr 1195). A 13th century genealogy names "Burchardum et Fridericum comites de Hohenburch" as sons of "Burchardum [filium Burchardi comitis de Zolre]" & his wife[544]. Graf von Zollern. Graf von Hohenberg. "…Comes Burcardus de Hohenberg et frater suus comes Fridericus…" witnessed a charter of Emperor Friedrich I dated 1179[545]. “...Burchardus comes de Hochenberc et frater eius comes Fridericus...” witnessed the charter dated 1185 under which Friedrich Duke of Swabia granted protection to Salem monastery[546]. “Fredericus comes de Hohenberc” witnessed the charter dated 11 Apr 1195 under which Konrad Duke of Swabia donated property to Kloster Salem[547]."
Med Lands cites:

     Sir John de la Roche married Isabel de Bromwich.¹

Sir John de la Roche died in 1375.¹
      ; Some time ago, there was an extended discussion regarding Isabel granddaughter of Anselm (1345) and her husband, William de Peto. William died without issue, and Isabel subsequently married Sir John de la Roche.

Sir John died in 1375 and his son, Thomas, his elder brother John having died about 1382, also inherited lands in Wales and Ireland, and ,on his death, left two daughters, of whom the younger, Ellen, wife of Sir Edmund Ferrers of Chartley, Staffs., received Castle Bromwich.

Weis 7th edition says that Ellen Roche [widow], daughter of Thomas Roche of Castle Bromwich, co. Worcs., d. 4 Nov 1440. She m. Sir Edmund Ferrers of Chartley and (2) as first wife, Sir Philip Chetwynd.

The remainder of Ellen de la Roche's ancestry is found in the Victoria County History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 4, edited by L. F. Salzmanpp. 252-253 sub the manor of Nether Whitacre in the parish of Nether Whitacre.

Another contributor observed thet her parents were Thomas de la Roche and Elizabeth Bermingham (spelled Birmingham and Bermingham). But Complete Peerage (CP), XI:44 (Roche), seemed to indicate otherwise:

"(i) Thomas de la Roche...2nd but 1st surv s. of Sir John de la Roche (by his wife Isabel de Bromwich), who d. 1376, s. and h. of Sir Robert de la Roche, s. and h. of Sir David de la Roche of Langwm, by Joan de la Roche, sister of William de la Roche. The representation was divided, on the death of (i), between his two sisters, Ellen who m. Edmund Ferrers of Chartley...."

If the Thomas de la Roche named in (i) above was indeed the brother of Ellen, that would make her parents Sir John and Isabel de Bromwich, not Thomas and Elizabeth de Bermingham.

BUT according to Faris II (p. 138), her parents were Thomas de la Roche of Castle Bromwich, co. Warwick, and Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Birmingham of Birmingham, co. Warwick, etc. Faris says she died 4 Nov.1440.

Someone else suggested this could be sorted by consulting information on the de la Roche family in Victoria County History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 4, edited by L.F. Salzman, published 1947, pg. 44, sub the manor of Castle Bromwich in the parish of Castle Bromwich, co. Warwick. Other information appears in the same volume regarding Roche family land in the parish of Nether Whitacre.

So which is correct - does anyone know????

The final word from another participant was: As to the Roches, see VCH Warks 4:44 and W Dugdale *The Antiquities of Warwickshire* Vol.II (London, 1730), p.886.¹

     Isabel de Bromwich married Sir John de la Roche, son of Sir Robert de la Roche.¹
Isabel de Bromwich married William de Peto
; her 1st husband.¹
      ; Some time ago, there was an extended discussion regarding Isabel granddaughter of Anselm (1345) and her husband, William de Peto. William died without issue, and Isabel subsequently married Sir John de la Roche.

Sir John died in 1375 and his son, Thomas, his elder brother John having died about 1382, also inherited lands in Wales and Ireland, and ,on his death, left two daughters, of whom the younger, Ellen, wife of Sir Edmund Ferrers of Chartley, Staffs., received Castle Bromwich.

Weis 7th edition says that Ellen Roche [widow], daughter of Thomas Roche of Castle Bromwich, co. Worcs., d. 4 Nov 1440. She m. Sir Edmund Ferrers of Chartley and (2) as first wife, Sir Philip Chetwynd.

The remainder of Ellen de la Roche's ancestry is found in the Victoria County History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 4, edited by L. F. Salzmanpp. 252-253 sub the manor of Nether Whitacre in the parish of Nether Whitacre.

Another contributor observed thet her parents were Thomas de la Roche and Elizabeth Bermingham (spelled Birmingham and Bermingham). But Complete Peerage (CP), XI:44 (Roche), seemed to indicate otherwise:

"(i) Thomas de la Roche...2nd but 1st surv s. of Sir John de la Roche (by his wife Isabel de Bromwich), who d. 1376, s. and h. of Sir Robert de la Roche, s. and h. of Sir David de la Roche of Langwm, by Joan de la Roche, sister of William de la Roche. The representation was divided, on the death of (i), between his two sisters, Ellen who m. Edmund Ferrers of Chartley...."

If the Thomas de la Roche named in (i) above was indeed the brother of Ellen, that would make her parents Sir John and Isabel de Bromwich, not Thomas and Elizabeth de Bermingham.

BUT according to Faris II (p. 138), her parents were Thomas de la Roche of Castle Bromwich, co. Warwick, and Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Birmingham of Birmingham, co. Warwick, etc. Faris says she died 4 Nov.1440.

Someone else suggested this could be sorted by consulting information on the de la Roche family in Victoria County History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 4, edited by L.F. Salzman, published 1947, pg. 44, sub the manor of Castle Bromwich in the parish of Castle Bromwich, co. Warwick. Other information appears in the same volume regarding Roche family land in the parish of Nether Whitacre.

So which is correct - does anyone know????

The final word from another participant was: As to the Roches, see VCH Warks 4:44 and W Dugdale *The Antiquities of Warwickshire* Vol.II (London, 1730), p.886.¹