Person Page - 2291

     Sir Robert de Eure married Isabella de Merlay.¹

     Isabella de Merlay married Sir Robert de Eure, son of Sir Hugh de Eure Knt. and NN Bertram.¹

Isabella de Merlay died before 1271.¹

     Godescal/Gottschalk II de Morialmé married Hedwige de Felnesse.¹
Godescal/Gottschalk II de Morialmé was born circa 1100.²
     GAV-24.

; Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1]. This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp. Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9

Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre ; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113 il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic (1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213 et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious.¹

     Hedwige de Felnesse married Godescal/Gottschalk II de Morialmé, son of Gottschalk (Godescal) de Trognée (Jauche) and Alpaïs (Alpaïde) (?) dame de Morialmé, Florennes et Auvelais.¹

     GAV-24.

     Gottschalk (Godescal) de Trognée (Jauche) married Alpaïs (Alpaïde) (?) dame de Morialmé, Florennes et Auvelais, daughter of Arnoul (Arnaud) III (?) de Florennes, seigneur de Morialmé, Avoué d’Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, Soumoy, Dampremy and Yvette (?), in 1094.²

     GAV-26. Gottschalk (Godescal) de Trognée (Jauche) was also known as Godescal de Trognée.²

     Alpaïs (Alpaïde) (?) dame de Morialmé, Florennes et Auvelais was born circa 1075.² She married Gottschalk (Godescal) de Trognée (Jauche) in 1094.³

     GAV-26.

     Unknown (?) married Landolfo I (?) Gastaldo di Capua, 1st Duca di Capua, son of Pando (?).^1,3

      ; Per Med Lands:
     "LANDOLF [I], son of PANDO & his wife --- (-[842/44]). "Landulph Maticu [=magnarum maxillarum], filius Pald" was installed as gastald and Count of Capua, dated to 815 by the editor of the MGH edition[1431]. Erchempert records "Landolfus" as "Capuæ…gastaldeus" when recording that he supported Siconulf, son of Sico Prince of Benevento, in the civil war with Arechis Prince of Benevento (dated to 839/42)[1432]. Arab mercenaries from Benevento burnt the old city of Capua in 841, after which a new city was built a few kilometres away[1433]. The Chronicon Vulturnense records that "Landulfus comes" left "Capua vetere", which he had held for 25 years and 3 months, and moved "in monticulum…Tripliscus qui alio nomine…Sicopolis" in 841, and died three years later[1434]. Count Landolf built a heavily fortified castrum overlooking the city of Capua, referred to as "Rebelopolis"[1435]. The Cronica de Monasterio Sanctissimi Benedicti record that "Landolfus senior" held "Capua veterem" for 25 years and 4 months and built "civitatem nobam in monte Trifisco" which he held for a further one year and eight months[1436].
     "m ---, daughter of [ROFRIT & his wife Dauferada ---]. The parentage of the wife of Landolf [I] is suggested by the Chronicon Salernitanum which names "Adelchisi Rofrit filius…et suum cognatum Landolfum comite Capuano"[1437]. Stasser suggests that "cognatus" should be interpreted as brother-in-law in this context, and therefore that Landolf´s wife was the daughter of Rofrit[1438]. that is correct, she could also have been the sister of Adelchis´s own wife."
Med Lands cites:

; Per Med Lands:
     "daughter . The parentage of the wife of Landolf [I] is suggested by the Chronicon Salernitanum which names "Adelchisi Rofrit filius…et suum cognatum Landolfum comite Capuano"[312]. Stasser suggests that "cognatus" should be interpreted as brother-in-law in this context, and therefore that Landolf´s wife was the daughter of Rofrit[313]. If that is correct, she could also have been the sister of Adelchis´s own wife.
     "m LANDOLF [I] Count of Capua, son of PANDO & his wife --- (-[842])."
Med Lands cites:

     Dauferada (?) married Rofrit (?), son of Daufer (?).^1,2

      ; Per Med Lands:
     "ROFRIT (-[836/39]). The Chronicon Salernitanum records the conspiracy involving "Rofrit cum germano suo…Potelfrit, filii…Dauferii" which culminated in "Agelmundus" assassinating Grimoald IV Prince of Benevento (dated to May 818), and Daufer making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in expiation of the crime[306]. Thesaurarius and referendarius of Sico I Prince of Benevento from [821] to [836]. The epitaph of "Rofrit" records his death aged 60[307].
     "m DAUFERADA, daughter of --- (-17 Oct ----). The epitaph of "Dauferada…Rofrit…iugalis" 17 Oct aged 45[308]. Her parentage is not known. The Chronicon Salernitanum names "Rofrit" and "sua principessa cognata", the latter referring from the context to the wife of Sicard Prince of Benevento (who is named in another passage of the same source as the daughter of Daufer "Mutus")[309]. If, as consistently suggested by Stasser, the word "cognata" can be interpreted as brother-in-law, it is possible that Rofrit´s second wife was Dauferada, daughter of Daufer "Mutus" & his wife --- [310]. Other examples suggest that “cognata” had acquired that meaning in later centuries, but that in the 9th century it was not necessarily so limited. If that is correct, there must be other possibilities for the parentage of Dauferada."
Med Lands cites: GAV-36.

; Per Med Lands:
     "DAUFERADA . The Chronicon Salernitanum names "Rofrit" and "sua principessa cognata", the latter referring from the context to the wife of Sicard Prince of Benevento (who is named in another passage of the same source as the daughter of Daufer "Mutus", see above)[659]. If, as consistently suggested by Stasser, the word "cognata" can be interpreted as brother-in-law, then it is possible that Rofrid´s wife was Adelchisa´s sister[660]. Other examples suggest “cognata” had acquired that meaning in later centuries, but that in the 9th century it was not necessarily so limited. If that is correct, there must be other possibilities for the parentage of Dauferada. The epitaph of "Dauferada…Rofrit…iugalis" records her death 17 Oct aged 45[661].
     "m ROFRIT, son of DAUFER & his wife --- (-[836/39])."
Med Lands cites:

     Potelfrit (?) died after 818.¹
     GAV-34.

; Per Med Lands:
     "POTELFRIT (-after 818). The Chronicon Salernitanum records the conspiracy involving "Rofrit cum germano suo…Potelfrit, filii…Dauferii" which culminated in "Agelmundus" assassinating Grimoald IV Prince of Benevento (dated to May 818)[316].
     "m ---. The name of Potelfrit´s wife is not known."
Med Lands cites: [316] Chronicon Salernitanum 48-50, MGH SS III, pp. 494-5.¹

     Rose de Lucy married William de Mounteney
;
Her 1st husband.³ Rose de Lucy married Michael Capra
;
Her 2nd husband.⁴
     Reference: Genealogics cites: A Rose by Any Other Name: Another Daughter of Richard de Lucy 2014, Bevan, Rosie ; Peter G. M. Dale.²

     Helvide (?) (?) married Arnoul (Arnold, Arnaud) I (?) seigneur de Florennes et Morialmé, son of Godefroi (Geoffroi) (?) de Juliers, comte en Hainaut and Alpaïde (Alpaïs) (?) de Lomegau (Hoegarde),
; Ravilious mentions Arnoul marrying a "Helvide". Genealogics (citing ES) and Med Lands say he m. "Ermentrude".^1,2,3
      ; Ravilious email: Thursday, 19 April, 2007
"Hello All,
     "An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1]. This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.
     "The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp. Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of this lineage as reconstructed below?
     "Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections are welcome.
Cheers, John
_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
___________________ I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
_____________ I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
______________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
___________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9
Wikipedia, on Morialmé
Historique de la seigneurie
     "La première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre ; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113 il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre le nom de Morialmé.
     "Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic (1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à Hawide de Ham.
     "Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213 et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé."
* John P. Ravilious."¹

     Elbert de Florennes Seigneur de Florennes married Alpaïde (Alpaïs) (?) de Lomegau (Hoegarde), daughter of Erlebaud (?) seigneur de Lomegau et de Chimay and Alpaïs (?) de France,
;
Her 2nd husband; his 2nd wife.^1,3,2,4 Elbert de Florennes Seigneur de Florennes married Hersende (?)
;
His 1st wife.^1,2
Elbert de Florennes Seigneur de Florennes died on 28 March 977.²
     ; Ravilious email: Thursday, 19 April, 2007
"Hello All,
     "An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1]. This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.
     "The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp. Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of this lineage as reconstructed below?
     "Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections are welcome.
Cheers, John
_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
___________________ I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
_____________ I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
______________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
___________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9
Wikipedia, on Morialmé
Historique de la seigneurie
     "La première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre ; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113 il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre le nom de Morialmé.
     "Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic (1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à Hawide de Ham.
     "Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213 et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé."
* John P. Ravilious."¹
; Per Stewart email [2007]:
     "Alpaide died on a 28 October ("Ob. Alpaidis mater Arnulfi"). Whether or not she was married to Eilbert after the death of Godfrey is open to question. Roland thought she was, and so did Misonne, both following the statement in a spurious history from Waulsort abbey (founded by Eilbert) written in the 12th century. However, apart from this the only evidences connecting them are first the earliest obituary of Florennes, that records the deaths of a group mostly related to the founders (Arnulf's sons), in which both figure but without any explicit link - as quoted above, Alpaide is described as mother to Arnulf, and Eilbert as husband of Hersende - and secondly an apparent error in a 10th-century addition to an account of the translation of relics that calls the father of Arnulf's sons "proles" (issue) of a lord named "Hilbertus", who could be identical with Eilbert. However, Eilbert was clearly not his father, and Misonne argues that "proles" must indicate a step-son rather than direct issue. I think it could just as well be quite wrong, or could be an odd way of saying that Alpaide's son Arnulf was issue of Eilbert's family, a blood relative in the succeeding generation, i.e Alpaide herself could have been a sister of Eilbert, or Godfrey could have been his close relative. Anyway, Arnulf inherited the lordship of Florennes that had belonged to Eilbert when the latter died on 28 March 977. Misonne was impressed by Eilbert and his wife appearing in the family group of obituary notices, but didn't explain why he and Alpaide are only identified by other relationships and not as spouses. Georges Despy in _Les chartes de l'abbaye de Waulsort_ (Brussels, 1957) had maintained that they were not married."⁵

; Per Med Lands:
     "EILBERT (-28 Mar 977). The Historia Walciodorensis monasterii names "comes Eilbertus pater comes Ebroinus"[416]. Seigneur de Florennes. The Historia Walciodorensis monasterii records that "comes Ebroinus [et] Berta" had seven sons named (in order) "comes Eilbertus, secundus comes Uddo de Foix, deinde comes Heribertus de Sancto Quintino, Gerardus de Odenarde, comes Boso, comes Witerus et Macuardus venerabilis episcopus", recording in a later passage that Eilbert and Heribert captured "Karolus rex" in 922 and held him at Péronne[417], although most of this appears to be pure fantasy. "Otto…rex" confirmed the foundation of Kloster Waulsort "Walciodorus…in pago Ardenna" by "nobili viro Eilberto…et uxor sua Heresuindis" by charter dated 19 Sep 946[418].
     "m firstly HERESWIND, daughter of --- (-[1 Jan] ----). The necrology of Gorze records the death "Kal Jan" of "Hersindis comitissa"[419], which may refer to the wife of Eilbert as her father-in-law's death is also recorded in the same source.
     "m secondly (after 964) as her second husband, ALPAIDE, widow of GODEFROI Comte de Hainaut [GOTTFRIED associate Duke of [Lower] Lotharingia], daughter of --- (-after 981). Her two marriages are confirmed by reading the Historia Walciodorensis Monasterii, which records that the (unnamed) wife of [Eilbert] had "binos…adolescentulos…Godefrido et fratri…Arnulfo" from her previous marriage to whom their stepfather bequeathed "pagum Florinensem"[420], read together with the Miraculis Sancti Gengulfi which names "Arnulfus, Alpaidis et Godefridi Hainoensis pagi comitis filius" specifying that he was Seigneur de Florennes[421]. “Alpaidis” donated “villam...Roserias in pago Hasbanio sitam, super fluviolum Neropie, in comitatu Hoyensi” to Waulsort abbey by undated charter, signed by “Alpaidis eiusque filii Arnulphi...Wirici fratris Arnulphi, Alberti comitis, Gisleberti, Radbodi fratrum eius...”[422]. Roland records that a 13th century copy of this charter includes the date 981[423]."
Med Lands cites:

[416] Historia Walciodorensis monasterii 1, MGH SS XIV, p. 505.
[417] Historia Walciodorensis monasterii 3 and 5, MGH SS XIV, pp. 505 and 508.
[418] D O I 81, p. 160.
[419] 'Obits mémorables tirés de nécrologes luxembourgeois, rémois et messins', Revue Mabillon VI (1910-1911), p. 267.
[420] Historia Walciodorensis Monasterii 29, MGH SS XIV, p. 519.
[421] Miraculis Sancti Gengulfi 3, MGH SS XV.2, p. 791.
[422] Duvivier, C. (1865) Recherches sur le Hainaut ancien (Brussels), XL, p. 379.
[423] Roland, C. G. ‘Histoire généalogique de la maison de Rumigny-Florennes’, Annales de la Société Archéologique de Namur, Tome 19 (Namur, 1891), p. 74, footnote 1.²

     Alpaide (?) married Etienne de Brakel.¹

      ; Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1]. This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp. Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9

Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre ; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113 il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic (1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213 et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious.¹

      ; Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1]. This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp. Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9

Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre ; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113 il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic (1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213 et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious.¹ Gerard 'the Great' (?) Bishop of Cambrai was Bishop of Cambrai between 1013 and 1051.¹

     Elizabeth Bigod married Sir John Aske of Aughton, Yorks.¹
Elizabeth Bigod was born circa 1445.¹

     Sir John Aske of Aughton, Yorks married Elizabeth Bigod, daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod Knt., of Settrington and Anne de Greystoke.¹
Sir John Aske of Aughton, Yorks was born in 1443.¹
Sir John Aske of Aughton, Yorks died in 1497.¹

     Eyla Muñoz (?) married Gonzalo Munoz (?) Conde de Asturias de Santillana, son of Munio Gonzalez (?) Conde de Alaba and Tigridia Ansúrez (?).^3,4,2

      ; Per de Almeida:
Almost all of the last generation have long ahnentafels.Best regards, Francisco.³

Reference: Genealogics cites: Actas do 17 Congresso Internacional de Ciéncias Genealógica e Heráldica, Inst. Port. de Heráldica, Lisboa, 1986.² GAV-27.

     Tigridia Ansúrez (?) married Munio Gonzalez (?) Conde de Alaba, son of Gonzalo Garcia de Lara de Castile.^1,2

     ; Per de Almeida:
Almost all of the last generation have long ahnentafels.Best regards, Francisco.³ GAV-28.

     Gracinde (?) de Rouerge married Guillermo Garcés (?) de Gascogne, Cte de Fézensac et d'Armagnac, son of García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne and Amuna/Amunia d'Angoulême.¹

     GAV-31.

     García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne was born in 860; Genealogics says b. 860; Med Lands says b. 850/860.^7,4 He married Amuna/Amunia d'Angoulême, daughter of Vulgrin I (?) Comte d'Angoulême et de Perigord and Regelindis (Roselinde) (?) de Septimanie, comtesse d'Agen, circa 875
;
Her 2nd husband. de Almeida [2007] says m. ca 850. Racines et Histoire says m. 890/900; Wikipédia (Fr.) says m. ca 875.^1,8,9,7,4,6
García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne died in 920.⁶
García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne died in 926; Racines et Histoire says d. 926; Genealogics says d. ca 904; Med Lands says d. aft 920.^2,7,4
      ; Per Wikipedia:
     "García II Sánchez (Basque: Gartzia Antso, French: Garsie-Sanche le Tors or le Courbé, Gascon: Gassia Sans, Latin: Garsia Sancius Corvum, died circa 930), called the Bent, was the duke of Gascony from sometime before 887 to his death.
     "He was probably a son of Sancho Sánchez or of Sancho Mitarra, though older sources give a genealogy with a Spanish origin.[1]
     "His ancestry is, in the end, unknown. He may have been a cousin of Arnold, who some sources claim acted as regent during his minority following his father’s death in 864 (if his father was Sánchez). Other sources place Arnold as Sancho’s successor and date his death to that same year. Whatever the case, García was in power by 887.
     "In that year, he appeared in a charter issued by the grandees of Aquitaine assembled at Bourges to decide on a course of action in the twilight of the reign of Charles the Fat. In 904, he was using the title comes et marchio in limitibus oceani: "count and margrave to the limits of the ocean." García was the first of a line of dukes which ruled Gascony until 1032 and incorporated the county of Bordeaux into its demesne. García’s daughter Andregoto married one Raymond, who fathered William the Good, Count of Bordeaux. García divided his domain between his three sons by Amuna:
Notes
1. Higounet, p 44, calls it "phantasmagorical".
Sources
** Higounet, Charles. Bordeaux pendant le haut moyen age. Bordeaux, 1963."³



;
Per Genealogics: "Garcia II Sánchez, called 'the Bent', was the ruler of Gascony from sometime before 887 to his death. He was probably a son of Sancho Sánchez or of Sancho Mitarra, though older sources give a genealogy with a Spanish origin. His ancestry is, in the end, unknown. In 887 he appeared in a charter issued by the grandees of Aquitaine assembled at Bourges to decide on a course of action in the twilight of the reign of King Charles 'the Fat'. In 904 he was using the title _comes at marchio in limitibus oceani:_ 'count and margrave to the limits of the ocean.' Garcia was the first of a line of dukes who ruled Gascony until 1032 and incorporated the county of Bordeaux into its demesne. Garcia divided his domain between his three sons: Sancho IV inherited a rump duchy of Gascony with the ducal title, Guillaume inherited the county of Fézensac (including Armagnac) and Arnold inherited the county of Astarac. Garcia died about 904."⁷



; NB: The identification of Sancho II Sanchez as the father for Garcia II Sanches is only speculation, described in Wikipedia, though I have chosen to include it here. GA Vaut.^10,11



; Per Wikipedia (Fr.):
     "Garcia II Sanche, Garsie-Sanche le Tors ou le Courbé (basque : Gartzia Antso, espagnol : García II Sánchez, gascon : Gassia Sans, latin : Garsia Sancius Corvum fut comte de Gascogne de 886/887 jusqu’à sa mort après 9201.
     "Aucun document contemporain ne livre ses origines sur lesquelles les historiens sont partagés : origine inconnue, ou issu des princes de Navarre ou encore des précédents comtes gascons1.
     "En 867 il apparait dans une charte publiée par les grands d’Aquitaine assemblés à Bourges pour décider d’une action lors du crépuscule du règne de Charles le Gros. En 904, il utilisa le titre de comes et marchio in limitibus oceani (« comte et marquis jusqu’aux limites de l’océan »).
     "Garcia fut le premier d’une lignée de comtes puis ducs qui gouverna la Gascogne jusqu’en 1032 et incorpora le comté de Bordeaux dans son domaine.
     "Garcia divisa son domaine entre ses trois fils.
Union et descendance
     "Il épouse vers 875 Aminia d'Angoulême, fille de Vulgrin Ier d'Angoulême, et en a six enfants :
Notes et références
Christian Settipani « La1. noblesse du Midi carolingien: études sur quelques grandes familles d'Acquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe siècle, Toulousain, Périgord, Limousin, Poitou, Auvergne » UPR, 2004, page 81 à 82. [archive]
2. (en) Charles Cawley, « Gascony » [archive], sur Medieval Lands, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, 2006-2016.
3. (en) Charles Cawley, « Gascony » [archive], sur Medieval Lands, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, 2006-2016.
Bibliographie
** Christian Settipani, La Noblesse du Midi Carolingien, Oxford, Linacre College, Unit for Prosopographical Research, coll. « Occasional Publications / 5 », 2004, 388 p. (ISBN 1-900934-04-3)
** Higounet, Charles. Bordeaux pendant le haut moyen âge. Bordeaux, 1963."⁶

; Per Med Lands:
     "GARCIA [I] "le Tors/el Curvo" Sancho, son of SANCHO "Mitarra/Menditarra" Duke of Gascony & his wife --- ([850/60]-after 920). The Genealogica Comitum Guasconiæ names "Garsiam-Sancium Curvum" as son of "Mitarra-Sancius"[80]. His birth date is estimated consistent with his father’s estimated birth date range. Comte de Gascogne. He is named in charters dated [886/87][81]. “Rex Fortunio Garcianes” reviewed the territories of the monastery of San Julián de Labasal, at the request of “comite Galindo Asnar”, by charter dated 893, whose dating clause records “...Garcia Sanz in Gallias, Raimundus in Paliares, pagani...Mohomet Ebenlupu in Balleterra et Mohomet Atauel in Osca...”[82]. "Walfridus…abba…monachorum monasterii Soricinensis" sold "cella Modulfi", donated by "Arrichoatus comes", to "dominus Garcias, comes et marchio in limitibus oceanis" by charter dated Oct 904, which names "uxoris suæ Aminianæ et…filiis et filiabus"[83]. "Garsias Sanctii consul filius regis Sancii" granted "Astaracensem pagum" to "Arnaldo filio meo" by charter dated to [920], signed by "Garciæ Sancii Consulis, Sancii Wilhelmi comitis filii, Salii Vivari, Sancii Amanevi, Gumbaudi, Eneci fratris eius"[84].
     "m AMUNA [Munia], daughter of ---. "Walfridus…abba…monachorum monasterii Soricinensis" sold "cella Modulfi", donated by "Arrichoatus comes", to "dominus Garcias, comes et marchio in limitibus oceanis" by charter dated Oct 904, which names "uxoris suæ Aminianæ et…filiis et filiabus"[85]. Jaurgain suggests that "Aminiane", wife of Garcia, was the daughter of Guillaume Comte [de Bordeaux] and [Duke of Gascony] whom (it seems) Garcia’s father succeeded, in order to explain in particular the transmission of the name Guillaume into Garcia’s family[86]. The chronology is not ideal for this suggestion. Guillaume Comte [de Bordeaux] is last recorded when he was captured in 848. Jaurgain says “très probablement, il survécut longtemps à ce désastre”. No indication has been found which indicates that Jaurgain’s speculation is correct. Given the estimated birth dates of Garcia’s children, it is unlikely that their mother was born before [860], which would mean that Guillaume survived for a considerable time during which the sources were silent about his career. In any case, the name “Munia” suggests that Garcia’s wife was of Spanish origin. The Historia Abbatiæ Condomensis records that "comitissa…coniux…Garsiæ Principis cognomento Curvi" restored the convent of Condom[87].
     "Comte Garcia I & his wife had [seven] children."
Med Lands cites: GAV-28.

Reference:
Genealogics cites:
1. Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.) 3/3:563
2. Biogr. details drawn from Wikipedia. biographical details.⁷ García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne was also known as Garcia II Sánchez 'le Tors ou le Courbé' de Gascogne Comte de Gascogne.⁶ García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne was also known as Garcia Sanchez Duke of Gascony. García I/II Sanchez "el Curvo" (?) duc et marquis de Gascogne was also known as Garcia II Sánchez 'le Tors' Duc de Gascogne.⁷
; Per Racines et Histoire (Angoulême): "? Amuna d’Angoulême ° ~875 + ~905 comtesse d’Agen
postérité Fezensac, Armagnac."⁸ He was Duc de Vasconie. (See attached map of Vasconie ca 740 - from Wikipedia: Par Cette image a été réalisée par Zorion (User:Zorion) et placée sous les licences ci-dessus. Vous êtes libre de la réutiliser, pour n'importe quelle utilisation, tant que vous me citez en tant qu'auteur, Wikimedia Commons en tant que site et suivez les instructions des licences.Si vous modifiez, transformez ou adaptez cette création, pourriez-vous avoir l'amabilité de me laisser un message sur cette page. Merci — Travail personnelMap from Garikoitz Estornés Zubizarreta Ducado de Vasconia (Auñamendi Eusko Entziklopedia), CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34980820) between 886 and 920.¹²

     Bernard III de Béarn Comte de Bigorre married Adalmur de Fézensac Heiress de Fézensac
;
Her 1st husband.²
      ; See Wikipédia (Fr.) for more information.³ Bernard III de Béarn Comte de Bigorre was Comte de Bigorre between 1090 and 1113.³

     Elisabeth|Eleanor Markenfield married Robert Aske of Aughton, Yorks, Heir of Aughton, son of John Aske of Aughton, Yorks and Eleanor Ryther,
;
His 1st wife.^1,4,2 Elisabeth|Eleanor Markenfield was born between 1510 and 1515.^1,2
Elisabeth|Eleanor Markenfield died before 1535.¹

     Elizabeth Dawnay married Robert Aske of Aughton, Yorks, son of Robert Aske of Aughton, Yorks, Heir of Aughton and Elisabeth|Eleanor Markenfield.^1,3,2

     Reference: Genealogics cites: Elizabeth Dawnay was also known as Elizabeth Dawney.²