Person Page - 425

     Sibyl Marshal married William (III) de Say Lord of West Greenwich, son of Geoffrey (II) de Say Lord of West Greenwich,
;
His 1st wife.^3,2,4,1
Sibyl Marshal died after October 1250.^3,2
     GAV-24.

Reference: Genealogics cites:

Reference: (an unknown value.)³

     Geoffrey (II) de Say Lord of West Greenwich was buried at Hospital of St. Mary, Dover, England.³ He was born circa 1155.³ He married Margery de Briwere, daughter of Sir William "The Elder" de Briwere Lord of Horsley and Beatrice de Vaux (de Valle), after 1225
; his 2nd wife, her 3rd husband.^3,4,1
Geoffrey (II) de Say Lord of West Greenwich died before 26 August 1230 at Poitou, France.^3,1 He and Margery de Briwere were divorced after 1255.^3,1
     GAV-23 EDV-22.

; Geoffrey; b c 1155; in 1210(?) was in Ireland with KING JOHN's army, one of the barons (magnates rather than peers of Parl) opposed to JOHN and one of the 25 assigned to see that Magna Charta was observed, pilgrim to Holy Land 1219; m 1st Alice, dau(?) of John de Chesney and widow of Hugh de Periers; m 2nd in or after 1225 Margery (divorce 12-), sis of William Briwere and widow of (a) - de la Ferté and (b) Eudes de Dammartin (d 1225), and d in Poitou just before Aug 1230, leaving (presumably by his 1st w), (?)with a yr s (?)Geoffrey(?): William.¹

; Volume 11, page 465:
GEOFFREY DE SAY I, br. and h. male, being 2nd s. of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was b. probably not later than 1135,(k) and possibly earlier.
Note k:
His s. Geoffrey m. after the end of 1175 and before 1180; see text below. Geoffrey de Say I may be the Geoffrey de Say who attested a charter of his uncle Gilbert de Say in 1151 (Round, Cal. Docs., no 522).

It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180 (see correction to p. 467 below). Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467:
He [Geoffrey de Say (d. by 1214)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and da. of Hugh MAMINOT(n).
Note n:
Confirmation of grant in 1168 by Walkelin Maminot to Bermondsey Abbey of the advowson of the church of Birling and of a similar grant by Geoffrey de Say, by "Galfridus de Say filius Galfridi de Say et Alicie de Cheinnei uxoris sue"; followed by confirmation by William de Say, son of Geoffrey de Say, son of Geoffrey (Thorpe, Reg. Roff., p. 169; B.M. MS. Cott. Claud. A viii, f. 116d/169; Dugdale, Mon., vol. v, p. 89). Grant by Geoffrey de Say son of Alice de Chetnay of land in Edmonton, temp. Ric. I (Cat. Anc. Deeds, no. A2035). After about 1200 the Say barony consisted almost wholly of fees formerly held by Alice's nephew, Walkelin Maminot.

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

1. On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].
2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

[Kevan L. Barton pointed out the contradiction between the identity of Geoffrey's wife given in the above account, and that given in volume 5, in November 2002. Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467, note o (continued on page 468):
Between 10 Aug. 1197 and 8 Mar. 1198 Geoffrey de Say II executed a charter confirming his father's grant [of the manor of Rickling to Geoffrey II's younger brother Geoffrey] (Idem, vol. ii, no. C2287). The confirmation is printed in full in Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxxiv, p. 181, and shows that Geoffrey II had an elder br. William, who was living at or after the birth of Alice de Vere's s. Geoffrey. There seems to be no evidence of the date of William's death, except that it was before 1 Jan. 1198 (?1198/9) (Round, Cal. Docs., no.280).

The confirmation referred to explicitly states that Geoffrey II's elder brother William was dead, so he must have died before the latest possible date of that document, namely 8 March 1197/8 (as stated by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117).

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 468:
GEOFFREY DE SAY II, 2nd but 1st surv. s. and h. by 1st wife, was b. probably about 1155. In 1180 in the account of the farm of the Vicomté of Arques he is acquitted in respect of a liability of 10s "for the land of Geoffrey de Sai which he had with the wife of Hugh de Periers."(e) In the same year he was amerced at the Forest Assize in respect of Hudwic' & Dodinton' (Ditton Priors, Salop); and, again in 1180, with the consent of his wife, he delivered to the prior of Wenlock his manor of Ditton Priors, which was her dower from Hugh de Periers.(f) In 1190 Michael Belet accounted for 100li to have right against him of the inheritance of his wife and to have his office.(g) In 1198 he was bailiff of Arques.(h)
Note e:
Stapleton, Mag. Rot. Scacc. Norm., vol. i, pp. cxxiv, 90.
Note f:
Eyton, Shropshire, vol. iii, p. 332.
Note g:
Pipe Roll, 2 Ric. I, p. 102. Michael had m. Emma, sister of Alice de Chesney; see p. 470, note "f" below.
Note h:
Stapleton, op. cit., vol. ii, p. cxxix. It has been assumed that this entry and the entries as to lands in Normandy which follow relate to Geoffrey II. If so, it was probably the same Geoffrey who in 1184 owed 33li 12s for 4 measures of wheat which he had for provisioning the castle of Gisors (D'Anisy, Mém. de la Soc. des Antiquaires de Normandie, vol. viii, p. 361).

As Geoffrey was a younger son of parents who were married after 1175, he was probably born around 1180 (see correction to p. 467 above). The references above from the period 1180-1190, and presumably also the one from 1198, must relate to his father, Geoffrey I. Michael Belet's wife Emma was the sister of Geoffrey I's wife.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 470:
He [Geoffrey de Say II (d. 1230)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Hugh DE PERIERS, and h. and possibly da. of John DE CHESNEY. He m., 2ndly, Margery, widow of (i) ... DE LA FERTÉ, (ii) Eudes DE DAMMARTIN (d. 1225), sis. and coh. of Will. BRIWERRE, by whom he was divorced.

Alice de Chesney was the wife of Geoffrey I de Say, not Geoffrey II (see correction to p. 467 above). The identity of Geoffrey II's first wife, the mother of his son and heir William, is unknown. Geoffrey was married to his second wife Margery by November 1225 [the quindene of St Martin, Michaelmas Term 9-10 Henry III; Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 12, pp. 295, 302].

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]² Geoffrey (II) de Say Lord of West Greenwich was Lord of West Greenwich at West Greenwich, co. Kent, England.³

; Magna Carta Surety.³
Geoffrey (II) de Say Lord of West Greenwich was a witness to the signed Magna Carta.
Counsellors named in Magna Carta
     "The preamble to Magna Carta includes the names of the following 27 ecclesiastical and secular magnates who had counselled John to accept its terms. The names include some of the moderate reformers, notably Archbishop Stephen Langton, and some of John's loyal supporters, such as William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. They are listed here in the order in which they appear in the charter itself:[62]
1. Stephen Langton, Archbishop of Canterbury and Cardinal
2. Henry de Loundres, Archbishop of Dublin
3. William of Sainte-Mère-Église, Bishop of London
4. Peter des Roches, Bishop of Winchester
5. Jocelin of Wells, Bishop of Bath and Glastonbury
6. Hugh of Wells, Bishop of Lincoln
7. Walter de Gray, Bishop of Worcester
8. William de Cornhill, Bishop of Coventry
9. Benedict of Sausetun, Bishop of Rochester
10. Pandulf Verraccio, subdeacon and papal legate to England
11. Eymeric, Master of the Knights Templar in England
12. William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke
13. William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
14. William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
15. William d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel
16. Alan of Galloway, Constable of Scotland
17. Warin FitzGerold
18. Peter FitzHerbert
19 Hubert de Burgh, Seneschal of Poitou
20. Hugh de Neville
21. Matthew FitzHerbert
22. Thomas Basset
23. Alan Basset
24. Philip d'Aubigny
25. Robert of Ropsley
26. John Marshal
27. John FitzHugh

The Council of Twenty-Five Barons
     "The names of the Twenty-Five Barons appointed under clause 61 to monitor John's future conduct are not given in the charter itself, but do appear in four early sources, all seemingly based on a contemporary listing: a late 13th-century collection of law tracts and statutes, a Reading Abbey manuscript now in Lambeth Palace Library, and the Chronica Majora and Liber Additamentorum of Matthew Paris.[63][64][65] The process of appointment is not known, but the names were drawn almost exclusively from among John's more active opponents.[66] They are listed here in the order in which they appear in the original sources:
1. Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford
2. William de Forz, Earl of Albemarle
3. Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of Essex and Gloucester
4. Saer de Quincy, Earl of Winchester
5. Henry de Bohun, Earl of Hereford
6. Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk and Suffolk
7. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford
8. William Marshal junior
9. Robert Fitzwalter, baron of Little Dunmow
10. Gilbert de Clare, heir to the earldom of Hertford
11. Eustace de Vesci, Lord of Alnwick Castle
12. Hugh Bigod, heir to the Earldoms of Norfolk and Suffolk
13. William de Mowbray, Lord of Axholme Castle
14. William Hardell, Mayor of the City of London
15. William de Lanvallei, Lord of Walkern
16. Robert de Ros, Baron of Helmsley
17. John de Lacy, Constable of Chester and Lord of Pontefract Castle
18. Richard de Percy
19. John FitzRobert de Clavering, Lord of Warkworth Castle
20. William Malet
21. Geoffrey de Saye
22. Roger de Montbegon, Lord of Hornby Castle, Lancashire[f]
23. William of Huntingfield, Sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk
24. Richard de Montfichet
25. William d'Aubigny, Lord of Belvoir

Excommunicated rebels
     "In September 1215, the papal commissioners in England – Subdeacon Pandulf, Peter des Roches, Bishop of Winchester, and Simon, Abbot of Reading – excommunicated the rebels, acting on instructions earlier received from Rome. A letter sent by the commissioners from Dover on 5 September to Archbishop Langton explicitly names nine senior rebel barons (all members of the Council of Twenty-Five), and six clerics numbered among the rebel ranks:[67]
Barons
1. Robert Fitzwalter
2. Saer de Quincy, Earl of Winchester
3. Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford
4. Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of Essex and Gloucester
5. Eustace de Vesci
6. Richard de Percy
7. John de Lacy, Constable of Chester
8. William d'Aubigny
9. William de Mowbray
Clerics
10. Giles de Braose, Bishop of Hereford
11. William, Archdeacon of Hereford
12. Alexander the clerk [possibly Alexander of St Albans]
13. Osbert de Samara
14. John de Fereby
15. Robert, chaplain to Robert Fitzwalter with John I "Lackland" (?) King of England on 15 June 1215.⁵

; pilgrim to the Holy Land.¹

     Alice de Chesney married Hugh de Periers
; her 1st husband.^2,1 Alice de Chesney married Geoffrey (I) de Say, son of William I de Say and Beatrice de Mandeville, between 1175 and 1180
; his 1st wife.^3,1,4
     GAV-24 EDV-22.

; Volume 11, page 465:
GEOFFREY DE SAY I, br. and h. male, being 2nd s. of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was b. probably not later than 1135,(k) and possibly earlier.
Note k:
His s. Geoffrey m. after the end of 1175 and before 1180; see text below. Geoffrey de Say I may be the Geoffrey de Say who attested a charter of his uncle Gilbert de Say in 1151 (Round, Cal. Docs., no 522).

It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180 (see correction to p. 467 below). Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467:
He [Geoffrey de Say (d. by 1214)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and da. of Hugh MAMINOT(n).
Note n:
Confirmation of grant in 1168 by Walkelin Maminot to Bermondsey Abbey of the advowson of the church of Birling and of a similar grant by Geoffrey de Say, by "Galfridus de Say filius Galfridi de Say et Alicie de Cheinnei uxoris sue"; followed by confirmation by William de Say, son of Geoffrey de Say, son of Geoffrey (Thorpe, Reg. Roff., p. 169; B.M. MS. Cott. Claud. A viii, f. 116d/169; Dugdale, Mon., vol. v, p. 89). Grant by Geoffrey de Say son of Alice de Chetnay of land in Edmonton, temp. Ric. I (Cat. Anc. Deeds, no. A2035). After about 1200 the Say barony consisted almost wholly of fees formerly held by Alice's nephew, Walkelin Maminot.

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

1. On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].
2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

[Kevan L. Barton pointed out the contradiction between the identity of Geoffrey's wife given in the above account, and that given in volume 5, in November 2002. Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467, note o (continued on page 468):
Between 10 Aug. 1197 and 8 Mar. 1198 Geoffrey de Say II executed a charter confirming his father's grant [of the manor of Rickling to Geoffrey II's younger brother Geoffrey] (Idem, vol. ii, no. C2287). The confirmation is printed in full in Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxxiv, p. 181, and shows that Geoffrey II had an elder br. William, who was living at or after the birth of Alice de Vere's s. Geoffrey. There seems to be no evidence of the date of William's death, except that it was before 1 Jan. 1198 (?1198/9) (Round, Cal. Docs., no.280).

The confirmation referred to explicitly states that Geoffrey II's elder brother William was dead, so he must have died before the latest possible date of that document, namely 8 March 1197/8 (as stated by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117).

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 468:
GEOFFREY DE SAY II, 2nd but 1st surv. s. and h. by 1st wife, was b. probably about 1155. In 1180 in the account of the farm of the Vicomté of Arques he is acquitted in respect of a liability of 10s "for the land of Geoffrey de Sai which he had with the wife of Hugh de Periers."(e) In the same year he was amerced at the Forest Assize in respect of Hudwic' & Dodinton' (Ditton Priors, Salop); and, again in 1180, with the consent of his wife, he delivered to the prior of Wenlock his manor of Ditton Priors, which was her dower from Hugh de Periers.(f) In 1190 Michael Belet accounted for 100li to have right against him of the inheritance of his wife and to have his office.(g) In 1198 he was bailiff of Arques.(h)
Note e:
Stapleton, Mag. Rot. Scacc. Norm., vol. i, pp. cxxiv, 90.
Note f:
Eyton, Shropshire, vol. iii, p. 332.
Note g:
Pipe Roll, 2 Ric. I, p. 102. Michael had m. Emma, sister of Alice de Chesney; see p. 470, note "f" below.
Note h:
Stapleton, op. cit., vol. ii, p. cxxix. It has been assumed that this entry and the entries as to lands in Normandy which follow relate to Geoffrey II. If so, it was probably the same Geoffrey who in 1184 owed 33li 12s for 4 measures of wheat which he had for provisioning the castle of Gisors (D'Anisy, Mém. de la Soc. des Antiquaires de Normandie, vol. viii, p. 361).

As Geoffrey was a younger son of parents who were married after 1175, he was probably born around 1180 (see correction to p. 467 above). The references above from the period 1180-1190, and presumably also the one from 1198, must relate to his father, Geoffrey I. Michael Belet's wife Emma was the sister of Geoffrey I's wife.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 470:
He [Geoffrey de Say II (d. 1230)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Hugh DE PERIERS, and h. and possibly da. of John DE CHESNEY. He m., 2ndly, Margery, widow of (i) ... DE LA FERTÉ, (ii) Eudes DE DAMMARTIN (d. 1225), sis. and coh. of Will. BRIWERRE, by whom he was divorced.

Alice de Chesney was the wife of Geoffrey I de Say, not Geoffrey II (see correction to p. 467 above). The identity of Geoffrey II's first wife, the mother of his son and heir William, is unknown. Geoffrey was married to his second wife Margery by November 1225 [the quindene of St Martin, Michaelmas Term 9-10 Henry III; Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 12, pp. 295, 302].

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]⁴

; Weis MCS 16A-1.⁵

     John de Chesney married Alice Maminot, daughter of Hugh Maminot.¹

     GAV-24 EDV-23.

.²

     Joan Rogers married Richard La Zouche 9th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth, son of John La Zouche 8th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth and Dorothy Capell, circa 1525
; his 1st wife.^1,2

     Sir John Rogers of Bryanston, Dorset married Elizabeth Courtenay, daughter of Sir William de Courtenay Knt., of Powderham Castle, Devonshire and Margaret/Mary Bonville.¹

     Sir John Rogers of Bryanston, Dorset lived at Bryanston, Dorsetshire, England.¹

     Eudes (Eudo) IV de Dammartin married Margery de Briwere, daughter of Sir William "The Elder" de Briwere Lord of Horsley and Beatrice de Vaux (de Valle),
;
His 2nd wife; her 2nd husband.^2,3,4 Eudes (Eudo) IV de Dammartin married NN de Lucy, daughter of Reynold de Lucy and Amabel Fitz William Heiress of Egremont and Copeland,
;
His 1st wife.⁵
Eudes (Eudo) IV de Dammartin died in 1225.^2,4
      ; Per Med Lands:
     "--- de Lucy . Her marriage and family origin are confirmed by the Testa de Nevill which includes a writ of King John dated 1212 which records that "Richard de Lucy" gave "Wolenested…medietatem…hundredum de Tenhrigg" in Surrey to "Odoni de Dammartin cum sorore sua in maritagium"[55].
     "m as his first wife, EUDES [IV] de Dammartin, son of WILLIAM de Dammartin & his wife --- (-after 1212)."
Med Lands cites: [55] Testa de Nevill, Part I, p. 69.⁵

     Geoffrey (I) de Say married Alice/Adeliza de Vere, daughter of Aubrey III de Vere 1st Earl of Oxford, 1st Earl of Essex and Agnes de Essex,
; his 2nd wife.^3,2 Geoffrey (I) de Say was born before 1135; Notes on Medieval Genealogy says "...Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death."^1,4 He married Alice de Chesney, daughter of John de Chesney and Alice Maminot, between 1175 and 1180
; his 1st wife.^5,1,4
Geoffrey (I) de Say died between 1212 and 1214.¹
     GAV-24 EDV-23.

; Volume 11, page 465:
GEOFFREY DE SAY I, br. and h. male, being 2nd s. of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was b. probably not later than 1135,(k) and possibly earlier.
Note k:
His s. Geoffrey m. after the end of 1175 and before 1180; see text below. Geoffrey de Say I may be the Geoffrey de Say who attested a charter of his uncle Gilbert de Say in 1151 (Round, Cal. Docs., no 522).

It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180 (see correction to p. 467 below). Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467:
He [Geoffrey de Say (d. by 1214)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and da. of Hugh MAMINOT(n).
Note n:
Confirmation of grant in 1168 by Walkelin Maminot to Bermondsey Abbey of the advowson of the church of Birling and of a similar grant by Geoffrey de Say, by "Galfridus de Say filius Galfridi de Say et Alicie de Cheinnei uxoris sue"; followed by confirmation by William de Say, son of Geoffrey de Say, son of Geoffrey (Thorpe, Reg. Roff., p. 169; B.M. MS. Cott. Claud. A viii, f. 116d/169; Dugdale, Mon., vol. v, p. 89). Grant by Geoffrey de Say son of Alice de Chetnay of land in Edmonton, temp. Ric. I (Cat. Anc. Deeds, no. A2035). After about 1200 the Say barony consisted almost wholly of fees formerly held by Alice's nephew, Walkelin Maminot.

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

1. On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].
2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

[Kevan L. Barton pointed out the contradiction between the identity of Geoffrey's wife given in the above account, and that given in volume 5, in November 2002. Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467, note o (continued on page 468):
Between 10 Aug. 1197 and 8 Mar. 1198 Geoffrey de Say II executed a charter confirming his father's grant [of the manor of Rickling to Geoffrey II's younger brother Geoffrey] (Idem, vol. ii, no. C2287). The confirmation is printed in full in Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxxiv, p. 181, and shows that Geoffrey II had an elder br. William, who was living at or after the birth of Alice de Vere's s. Geoffrey. There seems to be no evidence of the date of William's death, except that it was before 1 Jan. 1198 (?1198/9) (Round, Cal. Docs., no.280).

The confirmation referred to explicitly states that Geoffrey II's elder brother William was dead, so he must have died before the latest possible date of that document, namely 8 March 1197/8 (as stated by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117).

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 468:
GEOFFREY DE SAY II, 2nd but 1st surv. s. and h. by 1st wife, was b. probably about 1155. In 1180 in the account of the farm of the Vicomté of Arques he is acquitted in respect of a liability of 10s "for the land of Geoffrey de Sai which he had with the wife of Hugh de Periers."(e) In the same year he was amerced at the Forest Assize in respect of Hudwic' & Dodinton' (Ditton Priors, Salop); and, again in 1180, with the consent of his wife, he delivered to the prior of Wenlock his manor of Ditton Priors, which was her dower from Hugh de Periers.(f) In 1190 Michael Belet accounted for 100li to have right against him of the inheritance of his wife and to have his office.(g) In 1198 he was bailiff of Arques.(h)
Note e:
Stapleton, Mag. Rot. Scacc. Norm., vol. i, pp. cxxiv, 90.
Note f:
Eyton, Shropshire, vol. iii, p. 332.
Note g:
Pipe Roll, 2 Ric. I, p. 102. Michael had m. Emma, sister of Alice de Chesney; see p. 470, note "f" below.
Note h:
Stapleton, op. cit., vol. ii, p. cxxix. It has been assumed that this entry and the entries as to lands in Normandy which follow relate to Geoffrey II. If so, it was probably the same Geoffrey who in 1184 owed 33li 12s for 4 measures of wheat which he had for provisioning the castle of Gisors (D'Anisy, Mém. de la Soc. des Antiquaires de Normandie, vol. viii, p. 361).

As Geoffrey was a younger son of parents who were married after 1175, he was probably born around 1180 (see correction to p. 467 above). The references above from the period 1180-1190, and presumably also the one from 1198, must relate to his father, Geoffrey I. Michael Belet's wife Emma was the sister of Geoffrey I's wife.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 470:
He [Geoffrey de Say II (d. 1230)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Hugh DE PERIERS, and h. and possibly da. of John DE CHESNEY. He m., 2ndly, Margery, widow of (i) ... DE LA FERTÉ, (ii) Eudes DE DAMMARTIN (d. 1225), sis. and coh. of Will. BRIWERRE, by whom he was divorced.

Alice de Chesney was the wife of Geoffrey I de Say, not Geoffrey II (see correction to p. 467 above). The identity of Geoffrey II's first wife, the mother of his son and heir William, is unknown. Geoffrey was married to his second wife Margery by November 1225 [the quindene of St Martin, Michaelmas Term 9-10 Henry III; Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 12, pp. 295, 302].

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]⁴

; Geoffrey; b probably by 1135; involved in financial transactions and law suits against his cousin and n by marriage Geoffrey fitz Piers to gain the lands of the Mandeville Earls of Essex; m 1st Alice, dau of Hugh Maminot and widow of Ralph de Cahaines; m 2nd Alice or Adeliza (b after 1163; d in or after 1214), dau of 1st Earl of Oxford (see SAINT ALBANS, D) by his 3rd w Agnes, and d between 1212 and 1214, having by his 1st w had, with an est s (William, d by 1 Jan 1198/9?) and a yst (Ingram, in Ireland with his bro Geoffrey):

1b Geoffrey.¹

; Weis MCS 16A-1.⁵

     William I de Say married Beatrice de Mandeville, daughter of William de Mandeville and Margaret de Rie.^4,1,5,2
William I de Say was born in 1123 at Normandy, France.³
William I de Say died in August 1144 at Burwell Castle, Cambridgeshire, England; slain at siege of Burwell Castle along with his bro-in-law 1st Earl of Essex.^6,1,2
      ; WILLIAM de SAY; granted his (probably dead) f's lands in a charter of the EMPRESS MAUD between Christmas 1141 and June 1142; joined his bro-in-law Geoffrey de Mandeville, 1st Earl of Essex of the 1140 cr (see ESSEX, E, preliminary remarks), in rebellion against STEPHEN 1144; m Beatrice (d 19 April in 1197 or some year before it), dau of William de Mandeville, sis of 1st Earl of Essex and divorced w of Hugh Talebot, and was allegedly k in an attack on Burwell Castle, Cambs, along with his bro-in-law 1st Earl of Essex Aug 1144, though he may well have d later.¹ GAV-25 EDV-24 GKJ-24.

; William died during the siege of Burnwell Castle.³ William I de Say was also known as William de Saye.³

.⁷

; Leo van de Pas cites: The Complete Peerage 1936 , H.A.Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: V 117.²

     Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter was born on 29 March 1396 at Dartington, South Hams District, Devonshire, England.^6,2,7,8 He married Lady Anne Stafford, daughter of Edmund de Stafford KG, KB, 5th Earl of Stafford and Anne (?) of Gloucester, Countess of Buckingham, Hereford and Northampton, before 6 March 1427
;
his 1st wife; her 2nd husband. Genealogics says m. bef 15 jUL 1427.^{9,10,11,12,13,8,14} Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter married Brites/Beatriz/Beatrice (?) of Portugal, daughter of Joao I "the False" (?) King of Portugal and Inez Perez Esteves, between 20 January 1432 and 1433
;
date of license; her 2nd husband; his 2nd wife.^11,15,8,16 Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter married Lady Anne Montagu, daughter of John de Montagu Knt., KG, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, Lord Montagu, Lord Monthermer and Maude Fraunceys, after 1433
; his 3rd wife; her 3rd husband.^11,17,8
Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter died on 5 August 1447 at Stepney, London Borough of Tower Hamlets, Greater London, England, at age 51.^1,6,11,17,7
Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter was buried after 5 August 1447 at Chapel of Saint Peter-ad-Vincula, London Borough of Tower Hamlets, Greater London, England; From Find A Grave:
     BIRTH     29 Mar 1395, Dartington, South Hams District, Devon, England
     DEATH     5 Aug 1447 (aged 52), Stepney, London Borough of Tower Hamlets, Greater London, England
     Duke of Exeter. Born the second son of John de Holand, Duke of Exeter and Elizabeth Plantagenet; he was also nephew to Henry IV, and a cousin of Henry V, and Richard II. In 1400 his father was arrested and beheaded on a charge of treason against his brother-in-law, Henry IV. given a chance to serve Henry V in the 1415 campaign in France, Holland distinguished himself at Agincourt and was created a Knight of the Garter. In 1416 his father's Earldom of Huntingdon was restored to him. In 1421 he was captured by the French at the Battle of Baugé and spent four years as a prisoner before his release in 1425. In 1435 he was appointed admiral of England, Ireland, and Aquitaine, and in 1439 he was made the king's lieutenant in Aquitaine. That same year, he was restored his father's Dukedom of Exeter. He was succeeded by his son, Henry. Bio by: Iola
     Family Members
     Parents
      John de Holand 1350–1400
      Elizabeth Lancaster 1363–1425
     Spouse
      Beatrice Fitzalan 1386–1439
     Siblings
      Constance Holland de Mowbray Grey 1387–1437
      Elizabeth Holland 1389–1449
     Children
      Anne Holand Douglas unknown–1486
      Henry de Holand 1430–1475
     BURIAL     Chapel of Saint Peter-ad-Vincula, London Borough of Tower Hamlets, Greater London, England Show Map
     PLOT     He was buried next to his sister Lady Constance Grey before the church was destroyed in the 1800s.
     Maintained by: Find A Grave
     Added: 6 Nov 1999
     Find A Grave Memorial 6853.^6,7,8

His estate was probated on 16 February 1448.¹¹

     Reference: Staley cites: CP V: 195-200, 205-11, XIV: 311-312, I:245
Genealogics cites:
     1. Cahiers de Saint Louis , Dupont, Jacques and Saillot, Jacques. 1016
     2. A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866, Burke, Sir Bernard. 280
     3. The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de Walden. 5:205-11.^6,8,18 EDV-16.

; Per Wikipedia:
     "John Holland, 2nd Duke of Exeter, 2nd Earl of Huntingdon KG (29 March 1395 – 5 August 1447) was an English nobleman and military commander during the Hundred Years' War. His father, the 1st Duke of Exeter, was a maternal half-brother to Richard II of England, and was executed after King Richard's deposition. The Holland family estates and titles were forfeited, but John was able to recover them by dedicating his career to royal service. Holland rendered great assistance to his cousin Henry V in his conquest of France, fighting both on land and on the sea. He was marshal and admiral of England and governor of Aquitaine under Henry VI.[4]
Origins
     "He was the second son of John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter by his wife Elizabeth of Lancaster. His paternal grandparents were Thomas Holland, 1st Earl of Kent and Joan of Kent (a grand-daughter of King Edward I), who after Holland's death had married Edward, the Black Prince. His maternal grandparents were John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and Blanche of Lancaster. By his paternal grandmother, he was a half-nephew of King Richard II of England. By his maternal grandparents, he was a nephew of Henry IV of England, a first cousin of Henry V of England, and a first cousin once removed of Henry VI of England.
Career
     "Holland was just a boy when his father conspired against Henry IV and was attainted and executed. Nevertheless, he was given a chance to serve Henry V in the 1415 campaign in France, where he distinguished himself at Agincourt. The next year Holland was restored in blood and to his father's earldom of Huntingdon, and was made a Knight of the Garter. (His older brother Richard had died in 1400). Over the next five years he held various important commands with the English forces in France and in 1420 was made Constable of the Tower of London. He was captured by the French in 1421 at the Battle of Baugé and spent four years in captivity, not being released until 1425.
Marriages and issue
     "He married thrice:
     "Firstly on 6 March 1427 to Lady Anne Stafford (d. 20 or 24 September 1432), widow of Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March, and daughter of Edmund Stafford, 5th Earl of Stafford.[5] By Anne he had two children:
     "***Henry Holland, 3rd Duke of Exeter (1430–1475).
     "***Lady Anne Holland (d. 26 December 1486), who married firstly, Sir John Neville (d. before 16 March 1450), son of her second cousin Ralph Neville, 2nd Earl of Westmorland. The marriage is said to have been unconsummated. She was married secondly to her second cousin, John Neville, Baron Neville (uncle of her first husband), slain at the Battle of Towton on 29 March 1461. She married thirdly, James Douglas, 9th Earl of Douglas.
     "Secondly on 20 January 1433 he married Beatrice of Portugal;
     "Thirdly he married Lady Anne Montagu (d. 28 November 1457), a daughter of John Montacute, 3rd Earl of Salisbury.
Mistresses
     "By an unnamed mistress or mistresses he also had several illegitimate children, two of whom he named in his will.[citation needed] William, Thomas and Robert, the so-called 'Bastards of Exeter', were active in the Lancastrian struggles, and Stow reported that two of them were among the notable dead at the Battle of Towton.[6]
Appointments
     "In July 1416 he was appointed Lieutenant General to High Admiral of England Thomas Beaufort, Duke of Exeter (the post later became known as Lieutenant of the Admiralty) until 1435.[7] In November 1432 he was made Deputy Marshall of England until September 1436.[8] In 1435 he was appointed High Admiral of England, Ireland and Aquitaine. In March 1438 Holand was appointed Commander of the Army for relieving the castle of Guînes.[9] In 1439 he was made the king's lieutenant in Aquitaine. He was made count of Ivry in France by John, Duke of Bedford. Holland recovered his father's dukedom of Exeter on 6 January 1443/1444,[10] and was given precedence just below the Duke of York. He was succeeded as duke by his son Henry.
Death & burial
     "There is an effigy of this John Holland in the Chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London.
References
1. Griffiths 2004.
2. Cokayne, Gibbs & Doubleday 1926, p. 205.
3. Richardson 2011, p. 23.
4. Chisholm 1911, p. 65.
5. "The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography". 2004. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/13530.
6. Richardson 2011, p. 138.
7. Walker, J. A. (January 1979). "JOHN HOLAND, A FIFTEENTH-CENTURY ADMIRAL". The Mariner's Mirror. 65 (3): 235–242. doi:10.1080/00253359.1979.10659150.
8. Walker
9. Walker
10. Richardson 2011, p. 135.
Sources
     *Wikisource-logo.svg Chisholm, H., ed. (1911). "Exeter, Earl, Marquess and Duke of". Encyclopædia Britannica 11th ed. 10. Cambridge University Press.
     *Cokayne, G; Gibbs, V; Doubleday, H.A., eds. (1926). The Complete Peerage. 5 (2nd ed.) London: St. Catherine Press. pp. 205–11.
     *Griffiths, R.A. (2004). "Holland, John, first duke of Exeter (1395–1447)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online). doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/13530. Missing or empty |url= (help) First edition available at Wikisource: Hardy, W. (1891), "Holland, John, Duke of Exeter and Earl of Huntingdon (1395–1447)" , in Lee, Sidney (ed.), Dictionary of National Biography, 27, London: Smith, Elder & Co.
     *Richardson, D. (2011). Kimball G. Everingham (ed.) Magna Carta Ancestry. 2 (2nd ed.) ISBN 978-1-4499-6638-6.¹⁹

; Per Genealogics:
     "John de Holand, duke of Exeter, earl of Huntingdon, was born on 18 March 1395 at Dartington, Devonshire, the second son of John de Holand, duke of Exeter, and Elizabeth of Lancaster.
     " He was just a boy when his father conspired against Henry IV and was attained and executed. Nevertheless, he was given a chance to serve Henry V in the 1415 campaign in France, where he distinguished himself at Agincourt.
     " In 1416 he was restored in blood and to his father's earldom of Huntingdon, and made a Knight of the Garter. His elder brother Richard had died in 1400. Over the next five years he held various important commands with the English forces in France and in 1420 was made Constable of the Tower of London. He was captured by the French in 1421 at the Battle of Baugé and spent four years in captivity, not being released until 1425.
     " Before 15 July 1427 he married Lady Anne Stafford, widow of Edmund Mortimer, 5th earl of March, and daughter of Edmund de Stafford, 5th earl of Stafford, and Anne of Gloucester. They became the parents of a son and a daughter. Anne died on 24 September 1432.
     " On 20 January 1433 John de Holand contracted to marry Beatrice (Brites) of Portugal, widow of Thomas Fitzalan, earl of Arundel, and illegitimate daughter of Joao I, king of Portugal, by his mistress Inez Peres Esteves. No children were born from this marriage. Beatrice died in Bordeaux on 23 October 1439.
     " In 1435 he was appointed admiral of England, Ireland and Aquitaine, and in 1439 he was made the king's lieutenant in Aquitaine, and later governor of Aquitaine. He recovered his father's dukedom of Exeter in 1439, and was given precedence just below the Duke of York.
     " The third wife of John de Holand was Lady Anne Montagu, widow of Sir Richard Hankeford and Sir Lewis John, and daughter of John de Montagu, 3rd earl of Salisbury, and Maud Francis. There were also no children from this marriage.
     " John de Holand, duke of Exeter, died on 5 August 1447 in Stepney, Middlesex. There is an effigy of him in the Chapel of St.Peter de Vincula in the Tower of London. He was succeeded by his son Henry.
     " By an unnamed mistress or mistresses he also had several illegitimate children, two of whom he named in his will. William, Thomas and Robert, the so-called 'Bastards of Exeter', were active in the Lancastrian struggles."⁸

; John Holland, 13th Earl of Huntingdon (1416-1447); Knight of the Garter (1415); Admiral of England (1435); Governor of Aquitaine (1439); (restored) Duke of Exeter (1443-1447). An important figure in the later stages of the Hundred Years War, John Holland fought for Henry V with distinction in France: at Agincourt in 1415 and in command of a fleet against the Genoese off Harfleur in 1417. He took part in the sieges of Caen and Rouen, distinguished himself again at Pontoise (1419) and won a victory at Fresney (1420). He was captured by the Dauphinist in 1421, and ransomed in 1425. He represented England at the conference of Arras in 1435, which reconciled Charles VII of France and Philip the Good, Duke of Burgandy, and commanded an expedition to relieve Guisnes in 1438. In 1416, John Holland was restored as Earl of Huntingdon, than restored in blood, as heir to his father and brother in the 4th year of Henry V. The next year he was made general of all the men at arms and archers at which time employed in the king's fleet at sea, in which capacity he assisted at the siege of Caen. In 1420 he was in the great fight against the French who came to raise the siege of Fresney, wherein 5,000 were slain and 600 made prisoner. In 1443 his dukedom of Exeter was restored.¹

Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter lived at Northamptonshire, England.¹⁸

.¹¹

; at the siege of Harfleur.¹¹

; taken prisoner.¹¹

Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter left a will on 16 July 1447.¹¹

     Sir William de Fiennes Knt., of Herstmonceaux, Sussex, etc. was born circa 1330; aged 21 in 1351.^4,2 He married Joan de Say, daughter of Geoffrey (IV) de Say 2nd Lord Say, Baron of West Greenwich, Kent and Lady Maud de Beauchamp, before 1356
; her 1st husband.^4,1,2
Sir William de Fiennes Knt., of Herstmonceaux, Sussex, etc. died on 2 December 1359; Weis says d. 30 Nov 1359.^4,1,2
     GAV-20.

     Joan de Say married Sir William de Fiennes Knt., of Herstmonceaux, Sussex, etc., son of Sir John de Fiennes Knt., of White Waltham, Berks and Maud de Mounceaux, before 1356
; her 1st husband.^2,3,1 Joan de Say married Stephen de Valence before 1370
; her 2nd husband.¹
Joan de Say died on 29 June 1378.^2,1
     GAV-20.

; JOAN de Say; m Sir William FIENNES (d 1359), s of John de Fiennes (d 1351) and Maud de Monceux, and had, with an er s (d young): William (Sir).³

     Sir John de Fiennes Knt., of White Waltham, Berks married Maud de Mounceaux, daughter of John de Monceux Knt., circa 1329.^5,1,2

Sir John de Fiennes Knt., of White Waltham, Berks died on 5 April 1351.^5,6,1
      ; van de Pas cites: An account of the families of Lennard and Barrett, 1908., Barrett-Lennard, Thomas, Reference: 152, 162.¹ GAV-21. He was M.P. in 1343.⁵

     Maud de Mounceaux married Sir John de Fiennes Knt., of White Waltham, Berks, son of John de Fiennes and Joan le Forrester, circa 1329.^2,3,1

     GAV-21.

; Weis MCS 16C-6.² Maud de Mounceaux was also known as Maud de Monceux.¹

     GAV-22.

; Weis MCS 16C-6.²

     Sir James Fiennes Knt., 1st Lord Saye and Sele was born circa 1395; van de Pas says b. "say 1386."^6,1,2,3 He married Emeline Walsingham before 5 August 1441
; Richardson says this is his 2nd wife. Van de Pas quotes Brice Clagett: "Douglas Richardson's 'Plantagenet Ancestry', 2004, page 245 says that James Fiennes, 1st Lord Saye and Sele, had an 'unidentified first wife', who was mother of his daughter Elizabeth, wife of William Cromer. I know of no evidence for such an unidentified first wife, and RPA cites none. I do think there is doubt as to whether his wife Emeline was, as usually stated, surnamed Cromer; this seems likely to be a confusion with daughter Elizabeth's marriage. Edward Rowe Mores, _The History and Antiquities of Tunstall in Kent_, Bibliotheca Topographica Britannica (1790 republished in 1968) vol I. p.27, citing older pedigrees, says that Lord Saye's wife was Emeline Walsingham. (Brice Clagett.)^6,1,7,3,2"
Sir James Fiennes Knt., 1st Lord Saye and Sele died on 4 July 1450 at Standard, Cheapside, England; beheaded by a lynch mob led by Jack Cade.^6,1,2,3
Sir James Fiennes Knt., 1st Lord Saye and Sele was buried after 4 July 1450 at Grey Friars', Newgate, London, City of London, Greater London, England.²
      ; JAMES FIENNES, 1st LORD (Baron) SAYE AND SELE (E), so cr by Letters Patent probably by 24 Feb (writ of summons 3 March) 1446/7, PC (1447), JP (Kent 1433); b c 1395; served Hundred Years War in France, where granted lordship of Court-le-Comte by HENRY V, Capt (i.e, govr town of) Arques and Capt-Gen towns along the Seine; built Knole, Kent, with spoils from Hundred Years War, Sheriff Kent 1436, Esq of the Body and Kt of the Body to HENRY VI by 28 Aug 1437 and 9 Oct 1444 respectively, Sheriff Surrey and Sussex 1438, MP Kent 1439-40, 1442, 1445-46 and 1447, Constable Rochester Castle March 1442-Feb 1442/3, King's Serjeant by 24 April 1443, Constable Dover Castle and Warden Cinque Ports Feb 1446/7-50, King's Chamberlain April 1447, Constable Tower Aug 1447, Treasurer England 1449-50 (removed by HENRY VI when accused by H of C of treason as scapegoat for loss of French possessions towards close of Hundred Years War; later imprisoned in Tower by HENRY VI, again as scapegoat, on rising of Jack Cade); m Emiline/Emmeline Cro(w)mer (d 5 Jan 1451/2), of Willingham, and was beheaded by a lynch mob led by Jack Cade 4 July 1450.¹ He was Treasurer of England.²

Reference: Genealogics:
     1. The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald, Reference: Q 118534
     2. Plantagenet Ancestry, 2004 (a record of corrections made by others) , Richardson, Douglas
     3. The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: XI 479
     4. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography , Sellar, W. D. H.
     5. Harleian Society Publications Visitation series. 5:213.³

Reference: Weis MCS 16E-8.⁸ GAV-18. He was 1st Lord Saye and Sele between 24 February 1446 and 1447.^6,1,2

Sir James Fiennes Knt., 1st Lord Saye and Sele left a will on 12 April 1449.²

     Emeline Walsingham married Sir James Fiennes Knt., 1st Lord Saye and Sele, son of Sir William Fiennes Knt., of Herstmonceux, Sussex and Elizabeth Batisford, before 5 August 1441
; Richardson says this is his 2nd wife. Van de Pas quotes Brice Clagett: "Douglas Richardson's 'Plantagenet Ancestry', 2004, page 245 says that James Fiennes, 1st Lord Saye and Sele, had an 'unidentified first wife', who was mother of his daughter Elizabeth, wife of William Cromer. I know of no evidence for such an unidentified first wife, and RPA cites none. I do think there is doubt as to whether his wife Emeline was, as usually stated, surnamed Cromer; this seems likely to be a confusion with daughter Elizabeth's marriage. Edward Rowe Mores, _The History and Antiquities of Tunstall in Kent_, Bibliotheca Topographica Britannica (1790 republished in 1968) vol I. p.27, citing older pedigrees, says that Lord Saye's wife was Emeline Walsingham. (Brice Clagett.)^2,3,1,4,5"
Emeline Walsingham was buried after 5 January 1451 at Grey Friars', Newgate, London, City of London, Greater London, England.⁵
Emeline Walsingham died on 5 January 1451/52.^2,3,5
      ; Genealogics: The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald, Reference: Q 118534.¹ Emeline Walsingham was also known as Emiline Cromer (Crowmer) of Willingham.^3,5 GAV-18.

     Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester married Christian Holt, daughter of Richard Holt Esq. of Coldrey in Froyle, co. Hants and Joan Barton of Derbyshire, before 1462
; his 1st wife.^7,8,3 Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester married Alice Cock (Coxe), daughter of John Cock (Coxe) of Bristol,
; her 2nd husband; his 2nd wife.³
Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester died between 4 February 1506 and 5 March 1506.³

His estate was probated on 5 March 1506
; P.C.C. 4 Adeabe.³
      ; van de Pas cites: The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: IX 338.²

Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester lived at Beverton, Gloucestershire, England.⁷

Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester left a will on 4 February 1506.³

     Christian Holt married Sir Edward Berkeley Knt., of Beverton Castle, co. Gloucester, son of Maurice Berkeley Knt., of Beverstone, Gloucestershire and Lora Fitz Hugh, before 1462
; his 1st wife.^4,1,3
      .⁴

     Richard Holt Esq. of Coldrey in Froyle, co. Hants married Joan Barton of Derbyshire.²

     Richard Holt Esq. of Coldrey in Froyle, co. Hants lived at Coldrey, co. Hampshire, England.³

.³

     Mary Sackville married John Lunsford, son of William Lunsford Esq., of Lunsford, Sussex and Margaret Fiennes.⁴

Mary Sackville died before 30 June 1571.⁴
      .⁴

     John Lunsford was buried at East Hoathley, co. Sussex, England.¹ He married Mary Sackville, daughter of John Sackville Esq., of Chiddingly, Sussex and Margaret Boleyn.²
John Lunsford was born circa 1510.¹
John Lunsford died before 29 January 1581.¹

His estate was probated on 29 January 1581/82.¹

     John Lunsford lived at Lunsford and Wilegh, co. Sussex, England.²

.²

John Lunsford left a will on 19 October 1581.¹

     Humbert (?) Comte de Geneva married Anne (?) di Savoie.²

      ; Per Med Lands: "HUMBERT (before 1174-before 10 May 1225). "Willelmus…Gebennensis comes" founded the Chartreuse monstery of Pommiers, with the consent of "Humbertus filius meus…B. quoque uxor mea et filius meus Aymo quinquennis", by charter dated 1179[78]. "Wilermus Gebennensium et Valdensium comes" confirmed donations by "bonæ memorie predecessoris mei Aymonis [error for Amedei] comitis", with the consent of "Humbertus filius meus", by charter dated 1192, witnessed by "Turumbertus de Lucingio"[79]. Comte de Genève. "Dominus Humbertus comes, nepos eius" confirmed the donation to Oujon by "Petrus de Ternie" [Ternier] by charter dated to [1195/1207][80]. The donor, and his precise family relationship to Comte Humbert, have not yet been identified. "Humbertus et Willelmus fratres et comites Gebenn." granted the prior of Saint-Victor the right to fortify the monastery by charter dated 1220[81]. m ---. The name of Humbert's wife is not known. "
Med Lands cites: Humbert (?) Comte de Geneva was Comte de Geneva.²

; Weis [1999:23].²

     Anne (?) di Savoie married Humbert (?) Comte de Geneva, son of Guillaume I (?) Count of Geneva, Lord of Faucigny and Agnes (?) de Savoie.¹

      .¹

     Beatrix (?) d'Auxonne-Bourgogne married Aymon II (?) Sire de Faucigny, son of Henri (?) Seigneur de Faucigny and Comtesson (?) de Genève, Dame de Clermont, in 1210
;
His 1st wife; her 1st husband.^8,3,4 Beatrix (?) d'Auxonne-Bourgogne and Aymon II (?) Sire de Faucigny were divorced.^9,1,4 Beatrix (?) d'Auxonne-Bourgogne married Simon de Joinville Senechal of Champagne, son of Geoffroi IV de Joinville Senechal de Champagne and Helvide de Dampierre, in 1222
;
Her 2nd husband; His 2nd wife.^{10,2,3,4,11,12}
Beatrix (?) d'Auxonne-Bourgogne died on 11 April 1260; Genealogics says d. 11 Apr 1260; Med Lands says d. 20 Mar 1261.^2,3,4
     ; Per Med Lands:
     "SIMON de Joinville, son of GEOFFROY [IV] Seigneur de Joinville & his wife Helvide de Dampierre (-May 1233). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "Gaufridus, Robertus, Symon et Guido milites et Guilelmus clericus" as five brothers "apud Ionevillam", recording that Simon obtained Joinville[361]. "Geofroi V Trouillard Sire de Joinville senechal de Champagne" donated property to the abbey of Boulancourt with the consent of his mother Helvide de Dampierre and his brothers Guillaume archdeacon of Chalons, Robert and Simon by charter dated 1191[362]. Seigneur de Joinville. “Symon Joniville dominus” donated rights “in passagio et in venta Joniville” to Joinville Saint-Laurent, for the anniversary of “fratris mei Gaufridi bone memorie” who died “apud Acram”, by charter dated 1204[363]. "Simon de Joinville" confirmed his father's previous donations to the monastery at Mathons by charter dated 1206[364]. “Simon miles...dominus de Joinville” donated “patronatum ecclesiæ de Faverchinis” to Floreffe, with the consent of “uxoris meæ Ermengardis filiæ domini Johannis de Monte Claro”, by charter dated 20 Jun 1210[365]. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records that Erard de Brienne captured the castle of Joinville from Simon in early 1216[366]. Seneschal of Champagne. “Symon dominus Joviville senescallus Campanie” renounced claims “super riveria de Blesa” in favour of Montiérender abbey by charter dated 1214[367]. “Symon dominus Joniville et senescallus Campanie” renounced rights in favour of Ecurey abbey by charter dated 1218[368]. Disputes between Simon de Joinville and the count of Champagne were settled by agreement dated 7 Jun 1218, under which Simon pledged to help Thibaut IV Comte de Champagne and his mother Ctss Blanche against Erard de Brienne, in return for recognition of his hereditary right to the sénéchaussée de Champagne[369]. “Symon dominus Jovisville seneschallus Campanie” swore homage to “comes Barri” for property “apud Buincuriam et Robancuriam et Bures et Baincuriam et Germaium et Juvigneis” by charter dated 21 Dec 1221[370]. “Symon dominus Joniville senescallus Campanie” acknowledged holding “castrum de Marnai” as a fief from Hugues Duke of Burgundy, with the consent of “Beatricis uxoris mee”, by charter dated late-Sep 1230[371]. “Symon dominus Joniville seneschallus Campanie” donated property to Joinville Saint-Laurent for his own anniversary by charter dated Feb 1232 (O.S.)[372]. The year of his death is set by the charter of his widow dated 1233 in which he is named as deceased (see below).
     "m firstly ([1205/before 1209]) ERMENGARDE de Montclair, daughter of JEAN de Walcourt dit de Montclair & his wife --- (-after 23 Jul 1218). “Simon miles...dominus de Joinville” donated “patronatum ecclesiæ de Faverchinis” to Floreffe, with the consent of “uxoris meæ Ermengardis filiæ domini Johannis de Monte Claro”, by charter dated 20 Jun 1210[373]. "Simon Sire de Joinville frère et successeur de Geoffroi V Trouillart" donated property to the abbey of Boulancourt with the consent of his wife Ermengarde dame de Monteclere by charter dated 1 Aug 1210[374]. She was heiress of the château de Montclair, which passed to her son. "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" donated property to Clairvaux, with the consent of "sa femme Ermengart, de son fils Geoffroy, de ses filles Isabelle et Béatrix", by charter dated 1216[375]. “Ermengardis domina Montisclari” constituted “medietati totius terræ mariti sui Simonis domini Joinvillæ, Campaniæ senescalli…in dotalitio", naming "Gaufridus filius suus primogenitus", by charter dated 6 Jul 1218[376]. "Simon seigneur de Montclair et Ermengart sa femme" relinquished rights to the abbey of Mettlach, by charter dated 23 Jul 1218[377]. "Simon dominus de Monteclaro" pledged rights to Kloster Mettlach, for the anniversary of "coniux mea Ermengardis bone memorie", by charter dated 23 Jul 1218 [presumably misdated considering the other charter of the same date quoted above][378].
     "m secondly (before 1224) as her second husband, BEATRIX d'Auxonne, divorced wife of AIMON [II] Seigneur de Faucigny, daughter of ETIENNE [III] Comte d'Auxonne [Bourgogne-Comté] & his wife Beatrix de Chalon (-11 Apr 1260, bur La Charité). Her first and second marriages are indicated by the testament of her daughter "Agnetis dominæ Fuciniaci", dated 9 Aug 1268, which made bequests to "dominæ Beatrici dominæ de Thoria et Villario sorori suæ et filiis suis…Simoni de Joinville dom. de Jaiz fratri suo"[379]. Her parentage is indicated by the charter dated Jul 1225 under which "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" reached an agreement with "Jean de Chalon son beau-frère", by charter dated Jul 1225[380]. It is confirmed by the charter dated 1227 under which "Simon de Joinville, comme mari de Béatrix, fille d'Etienne comte d'Auxonne et de Béatrix comtesse de Chalon" swore homage to the duke of Burgundy for the château de Marnay[381]. Dame de Marnay. "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" donated property to Molesme, with the consent of "sa femme Béatrix", by charter dated 1224[382]. “Beatrix de Joinville senechalesse de Champagne et...Hues chevaliers de Fronville” judged a dispute involving Evaux abbey which was to be settled by “nostre sire Simon de bonne mémoire ça en ariers sire de Joinville” by charter dated 1233[383]. "Beatrix dame de Joinville executrice testamentaire de Simon sire de Joinville son mari mort l'année précédente" donated property to the abbey of Boulancourt by charter dated Feb 1235[384]. “Jehans cuens de Bourgoingne et sires de Salins” confirmed the donation to the abbey of la Charité made by “Beatris ma suer dame de Marnay” and by “Simon son fil seignour de Jays” by charter dated Dec 1255[385]. The necrology of the abbey of La Charité records the death “XIII Kal Apr” 1260 of “Beatricis filiæ comitis Stephani in conventu dominæ de Mernay”[386]."
Med Lands cites:
; Per Racines et Histoire (Joinville): “Simon de Joinville ° ~1175 + 05/1233 seigneur de Sailly puis de comte de Joinville (52) et Bures, Sénéchal de Champagne (1224), X pour le duc de Lorraine (1214) (confirme précédente donations de son père au Monastère de Mathon 1206 ; son château de Joinville est saisi par Erard de Brienne début 1216 ; obtient le Sénéchalat héréditaire de Champagne contre son alliance avec le comte Thibaut IV et sa mère la comtesse Blanche contre les prétentions des Brienne par agrément 07/06/1218 ; donations avec sa 1ère femme Ermengarde et leurs enfants : 01/08/1210 à l’Abbaye de Boulancourt puis à Clairvaux 1216 ; restituent des droits à l’Abbaye de Mettlach 23/07/1218 ; concède au Prieuré de Vaucouleurs un terrain en 1223 pour la fondation d’une chapelle dédiée à Saint-Laurent ; donation avec sa 2nde femme Béatrix à Molesme 1224 pour une fondation de chapelle dédiée à Saint-Laurent ; agrément avec Jean de Chalon, son beau-frère 07/1225 ; hommage au duc de Bourgogne pour le château de Marnay 1227)
     ép.1) avant 1209 (~1205/06 ?) Ermengarde de Montclair (de Walcourt), dame Châtelaine de Montclair (Sarre, Mettlach) + après 23/07/1218 (fille d’Arnold, seigneur de Montclair-Walcourt dit «de Montclair», Avoué de l’Abbaye de Merzig (Sarre) (reçoit en 1218 de son mari un douaire de terres à Vaucouleurs et Montiers-sur-Saulx)
     ép.2) dès 1224 (ou 1215/19 ?) Béatrix d’Auxonne (de Bourgogne, de Marnay), dame de Marnay (70) + 11/04/1260 (fille d’Etienne III, comte d‘Auxonne (Bourgogne-Comté) et de Béatrix, comtesse de Chalon (1203) ; divorcée d’Aimon II, seigneur de Faucigny -74 > dont 2 filles Béatrix et Agnès, femme de Pierre IV de Savoie) (donation, comme exécutrice testamentaire de son mari, à l’Abbaye de Boulancourt 02/1235 ; fonde la chapelle castrale de Vaucouleurs 1234)”.¹³

Reference: Genealogics cites:

; This is the same person as ”Béatrice d'Auxonne” at Wikipédia (Fr.)¹⁴ EDV-21.

Reference: Weis [1999:23] line 17C-4.¹⁰ She and Simon de Joinville Senechal of Champagne were Per Genealogy.EU (Ivrea 2): “C5. Beatrix de Bourgogne, +1260; m.Simon de Joinville (+1233)”.¹⁵

; Per Med Lands:
     "BEATRIX d'Auxonne (-20 Mar 1261, bur La Charité). Her first and second marriages are indicated by the testament of her daughter "Agnetis dominæ Fuciniaci", dated 9 Aug 1268, which made bequests to "dominæ Beatrici dominæ de Thoria et Villario sorori suæ et filiis suis…Simoni de Joinville dom. de Jaiz fratri suo"[219]. Her parentage is indicated by the charter dated Jul 1225 under which "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" reached an agreement with "Jean de Chalon son beau-frère"[220]. It is confirmed by the charter dated 1227 under which "Simon de Joinville, comme mari de Béatrix, fille d'Etienne comte d'Auxonne et de Béatrix comtesse de Chalon" swore homage to the duke of Burgundy for the château de Marnay[221]. Dame de Marnay. "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" donated property to Molesme, with the consent of "sa femme Béatrix", by charter dated 1224[222]. "Beatrix dame de Joinville executrice testamentaire de Simon sire de Joinville son mari mort l'année précédente" donated property to the abbey of Boulancourt by charter dated Feb 1235[223]. “Jehans cuens de Bourgoingne et sires de Salins” confirmed the donation to the abbey of la Charité made by “Beatris ma suer dame de Marnay” and by “Simon son fil seignour de Jays” by charter dated Dec 1255[224]. The necrology of the abbey of La Charité records the death “XIII Kal Apr” 1260 of “Beatricis filiæ comitis Stephani in conventu dominæ de Mernay”[225].
     "m firstly (1210, separated) as his first wife, AIMON [II] Seigneur de Faucigny, son of HENRI Seigneur de Faucigny & his wife Comtesson de Genève (-[Apr/Oct] 1253).
     "m secondly (before 1224) as his second wife, SIMON Seigneur de Joinville, son of GEOFFROI [IV] Seigneur de Joinville & his wife Helvide de Dampierre (-May 1233). Sénéchal de Champagne 1224."
Med Lands cites:

; Per Med Lands:
     "AIMON [II] (-[Apr/Oct] 1253). Seigneur de Faucigny. "Aimo de Fulciniaco" confirmed the properties of la Chartreuse du Reposoir by charter dated 9 Oct 1202[359]. "Aimo de Fulciniaco", with the advice of "tutoris mei Nantelmi de Miolans", confirmed prior donations to la Chartreuse du Reposoir by "frater meus Vuillermus", by charter dated Feb 1210[360]. "Aimon seigneur de Faucigny" confirmed the donations to la Chartreuse de Vallon by "son père Henri" by charter dated May 1221[361]. "Haimonem dominum de Fucignie" reached an agreement with the bishop of Lausanne concerning the advocacy of the church of Lausanne, which Aimon claimed had been granted by "comitibus de Ciburc", by charter dated 1226[362]. An undated charter confirmed the agreement ending the war between the bishop of Lausanne and "Aymo dominus de Fucigniaco", sworn by "viros nobiles dominum Petrum de Sabaudia et R comitem Gebennensem"[363]. "Aymo dominus de Fulc." transferred his rights to Chamonix, previously held by "bo. me. W. fratri meo", to "dno. W. comiti Gebenensi" by charter dated 20 Apr 1229[364]. The testament of "Aymo dominus Fuciniaci" is dated Feb 1234, appoints "Agnetem filiam suam", betrothed to "Petro de Sabaudia filio condam Thome Comit. Sabaud.", as his heir in default of male heirs, and reserves the dowry of "alterius filiarum suarum Beatricis"[365].
     "m firstly (1210, separated) as her first husband, BEATRIX d'Auxonne, daughter of ETIENNE [III] Comte d'Auxonne [Bourgogne-Comté] & his first wife Beatrix de Chalon (-20 Mar 1261, bur La Charité). Her first and second marriages are indicated by the testament of her daughter "Agnetis dominæ Fuciniaci", dated 9 Aug 1268, which made bequests to "dominæ Beatrici dominæ de Thoria et Villario sorori suæ et filiis suis…Simoni de Joinville dom. de Jaiz fratri suo"[366]. Her parentage is indicated by the charter dated Jul 1225 under which "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" reached an agreement with "Jean de Chalon son beau-frère", by charter dated Jul 1225[367]. It is confirmed by the charter dated 1227 under which "Simon de Joinville, comme mari de Béatrix, fille d'Etienne comte d'Auxonne et de Béatrix comtesse de Chalon" swore homage to the duke of Burgundy for the château de Marnay[368]. Dame de Marnay. She married secondly (before 1224) as his second wife, Simon Seigneur de Joinville. "Simon seigneur de Joinville, sénéchal de Champagne" donated property to Molesme, with the consent of "sa femme Béatrix", by charter dated 1224[369]. "Beatrix dame de Joinville executrice testamentaire de Simon sire de Joinville son mari mort l'année précédente" donated property to the abbey of Boulancourt by charter dated Feb 1235[370]. The necrology of the abbey of La Charité records the death “XIII Kal Apr” 1260 of “Beatricis filiæ comitis Stephani in conventu dominæ de Mernay”[371].
     "m secondly (contract 9 Oct 1231) as her second husband, FLOTTE de Royans, widow of GUILLAUME [II] de Poitiers Comte de Valentinois, daughter of RAIMBAUD Bérenger de Royans "Ossassica" & his wife Alix de la Tour du Pin ([1208/10]-after Jun 1257). Her second marriage is confirmed by the charter dated 9 Oct 1231 under which "Aymo dominus Fuciniaci" mortgaged "castrum de Cresta…dotis dominæ Flotæ uxoris suæ…quondam fuit uxor Willelmi de Pictavia" to "W…electo Valentino"[372]."
Med Lands cites:

     Joan (Jeanne) de Joinville married Gerald Rothfalyaght ('The Red Man of Offaly') Fitz Maurice Fitz Gerald 4th Baron of Offaly, son of Maurice Ruadh ('The Red') Fitz Gerald 3rd Baron of Offaly.^3,1
Joan (Jeanne) de Joinville married Johann I (?) Graf von Ober-Salm, son of Heinrich IV (?) Grav von Ober-Salm and Lauretta (?) Graefin von Blieskastel, before 1294.^3,2

      ; Jeanne, heiress of Neuviller, dau.of Geoffroi de Joinville.²

; Weis [MCS] line 17C-5.³

     Beatrice de Say married Geoffrey Fitz Piers 4th Earl of Essex, son of Piers de Lutegareshale and Maud de Mandeville Lady of Costow, Wiltshire, before 25 January 1184.^5,6,1,3,2

Beatrice de Say was buried circa 1197 at Shouldham Priory, co. Essex, England.¹
Beatrice de Say died before 19 April 1197.^6,7,3
     GAV-23 EDV-23 GKJ-24.

; Beatrice; m by 25 Jan 1184/5 Geoffrey fitz Piers, 3rd Earl of Essex (qv) of the Jan 1155/6 cr, and d by 19 April 1197, leaving issue.³

; Leo van de Pas cites: The Complete Peerage 1936 , H.A.Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: VI 459.²

.⁵

     William de Say of Kimbolton married Aufrica (?) of Scotland, daughter of William I "The Lion" (?) Earl of Northumberland, King of Scotland.^7,8,9

William de Say of Kimbolton died before 1 August 1177.^1,2
     GAV-24 EDV-24 GKJ-25.

; Leo van de Pas cites: The Complete Peerage 1936 , H.A.Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: V 117.²

; William, of Kimbolton, Hunts, and Saham, Norfolk; m -, and dspm just prior to 1 Aug 1177.¹

.¹⁰

     Jane/Joan Bourchier Baroness Berners married Sir Edmund Knyvet Knt., of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, son of Sir Edmund Knyvet Knt., of Buckenham, Norfolk and Eleanor Tyrell.^8,3,9,4

Jane/Joan Bourchier Baroness Berners died between 17 February 1561 and 1562.^8,1,10,3,4
Jane/Joan Bourchier Baroness Berners was buried after 17 February 1562 at Ashwellthorpe (Near Wymondham), co. Norfolk, England.³
      ; JANE Bourchier, of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, de jure BARONESS BERNERS; m Edmund KNYVETT, Sgt-Porter to HENRY VIII (d April 1539), and d 17 Feb 1561/2, having had, with other issue:
John.¹⁰

Jane/Joan Bourchier Baroness Berners lived at Ashwellthorpe, co. Norfolk, England.^2,3

; Weis MCS 18-13.⁸ Jane/Joan Bourchier Baroness Berners was also known as Joan Bourgchier.⁶

; van de Pas cites: 1. The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald, Reference: P 59290
2. Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America bef.1700, 7th Edition, 1992, Weis, Frederick Lewis, Reference: 8.^11,4